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4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations.
(2019-09-09, 09:19)CiNcH Wrote:
(2019-09-09, 09:14)noggin Wrote: I can't watch MotionFlow because of the number of spurious artefacts it introduces
I set Smoothness to 2 (out of 5/Max) (plus Film mode/CineMotion to High) for the X1 Extreme based BRAVIA X900F and it is perfectly fine for me.

X1 Ultimate based BRAVIAs only have 3 notches for Smoothness IIRC. Dunno how Motionflow behaves there.

I noticed that if I select all the resolutions in the whitelist so that the X900F does all the upscaling to 4K, I get jerky movement at times if MotionFlow is True Cinema (didn't test custom settings). Film mode can bet set to High without any issues. I wonder why that happens? The sources have been normal movies at 23.976 fps, resolutions ranging between 1280x536 - 1280x720.

With my set top cable box outputting the video as it is broadcast, there's no problem enabling True Cinema and Film mode High.
Reply
(2019-11-13, 17:18)Boulder Wrote:
(2019-09-09, 09:19)CiNcH Wrote:
(2019-09-09, 09:14)noggin Wrote: I can't watch MotionFlow because of the number of spurious artefacts it introduces
I set Smoothness to 2 (out of 5/Max) (plus Film mode/CineMotion to High) for the X1 Extreme based BRAVIA X900F and it is perfectly fine for me.

X1 Ultimate based BRAVIAs only have 3 notches for Smoothness IIRC. Dunno how Motionflow behaves there. 

I noticed that if I select all the resolutions in the whitelist so that the X900F does all the upscaling to 4K, I get jerky movement at times if MotionFlow is True Cinema (didn't test custom settings). Film mode can bet set to High without any issues. I wonder why that happens? The sources have been normal movies at 23.976 fps, resolutions ranging between 1280x536 - 1280x720.

With my set top cable box outputting the video as it is broadcast, there's no problem enabling True Cinema and Film mode High. 

I have a 49XF9005 (the UK version of the X900F I believe).   However I have MotionFlow entirely disabled - as I want to watch at native frame rate (or as near as possible) without any artefacts added by consume-grade frame rate conversion (I want to see the sources I play as close to the control room/grading suite quality as I can - and no control rooms or grading suites use MotionFlow-type processing).  

When you say 'jerky movement' what is the frame rate of the material you are playing and what is the frame rate you are outputting it at?  I can enable the MotionFlow on my TV and compare what I see with what you see? (I have an N2, a Minix U9-H, an nVidia Shield TV original version and an unhealthy number of Raspberry Pis and Chromeboxes)
Reply
(2019-11-13, 17:57)noggin Wrote:
(2019-11-13, 17:18)Boulder Wrote:
(2019-09-09, 09:19)CiNcH Wrote: I set Smoothness to 2 (out of 5/Max) (plus Film mode/CineMotion to High) for the X1 Extreme based BRAVIA X900F and it is perfectly fine for me.

X1 Ultimate based BRAVIAs only have 3 notches for Smoothness IIRC. Dunno how Motionflow behaves there. 

I noticed that if I select all the resolutions in the whitelist so that the X900F does all the upscaling to 4K, I get jerky movement at times if MotionFlow is True Cinema (didn't test custom settings). Film mode can bet set to High without any issues. I wonder why that happens? The sources have been normal movies at 23.976 fps, resolutions ranging between 1280x536 - 1280x720.

With my set top cable box outputting the video as it is broadcast, there's no problem enabling True Cinema and Film mode High. 

I have a 49XF9005 (the UK version of the X900F I believe).   However I have MotionFlow entirely disabled - as I want to watch at native frame rate (or as near as possible) without any artefacts added by consume-grade frame rate conversion (I want to see the sources I play as close to the control room/grading suite quality as I can - and no control rooms or grading suites use MotionFlow-type processing).  

When you say 'jerky movement' what is the frame rate of the material you are playing and what is the frame rate you are outputting it at?  I can enable the MotionFlow on my TV and compare what I see with what you see? (I have an N2, a Minix U9-H, an nVidia Shield TV original version and an unhealthy number of Raspberry Pis and Chromeboxes)

The source fps is 23.976. I don't know what the final rate is, I would expect the TV to use the 24p mode. But it doesn't show that in the display info, I see only 720p (looks like Kodi outputs at the closest fitting resolution if my source is like 1280x544). With no resolutions selected from the whitelist, everything works fine with MotionFlow at True Cinema.

I probably need to compare a 1280x544 and a 1280x720 source at 23.976 fps. Maybe the difference comes from what Kodi actually outputs.
Reply
(2019-11-13, 18:05)Boulder Wrote:
(2019-11-13, 17:57)noggin Wrote:
(2019-11-13, 17:18)Boulder Wrote: I noticed that if I select all the resolutions in the whitelist so that the X900F does all the upscaling to 4K, I get jerky movement at times if MotionFlow is True Cinema (didn't test custom settings). Film mode can bet set to High without any issues. I wonder why that happens? The sources have been normal movies at 23.976 fps, resolutions ranging between 1280x536 - 1280x720.

With my set top cable box outputting the video as it is broadcast, there's no problem enabling True Cinema and Film mode High. 

I have a 49XF9005 (the UK version of the X900F I believe).   However I have MotionFlow entirely disabled - as I want to watch at native frame rate (or as near as possible) without any artefacts added by consume-grade frame rate conversion (I want to see the sources I play as close to the control room/grading suite quality as I can - and no control rooms or grading suites use MotionFlow-type processing).  

When you say 'jerky movement' what is the frame rate of the material you are playing and what is the frame rate you are outputting it at?  I can enable the MotionFlow on my TV and compare what I see with what you see? (I have an N2, a Minix U9-H, an nVidia Shield TV original version and an unhealthy number of Raspberry Pis and Chromeboxes)     

The source fps is 23.976. I don't know what the final rate is, I would expect the TV to use the 24p mode. But it doesn't show that in the display info, I see only 720p (looks like Kodi outputs at the closest fitting resolution if my source is like 1280x544). With no resolutions selected from the whitelist, everything works fine with MotionFlow at True Cinema.

I probably need to compare a 1280x544 and a 1280x720 source at 23.976 fps. Maybe the difference comes from what Kodi actually outputs.     

When you don't have Whitelisted resolutions selected do you still have Adjust Frame Rate enabled in Player settings (On Start Stop or On Start?)

What do things look like if you disable MotionFlow entirely?

AIUI True Cinema MotionFlow is for 23.976Hz content played at 59.94Hz content with 3:2 pulldown - it detects and removes the 3:2 to generate a 23.976Hz signal. This isn't needed if your Kodi source outputs 23.976Hz natively via whitelisting or adjust frame rate (as there is no 3:2 to detect and remove)?  It's really more useful for broadcast TV sources in North America (where 3:2 is standard for 23.976Hz stuff - whereas in Europe we don't use it)

I may be wrong - but that's my understanding of what True Cinema Motion Flow does.

(Sony used the standalone True Cinema branding for their TVs that accepted native 23.976p inputs back in the day. I had to replace my first gen 40" Sony LCD that did 50/59.94Hz-only with one that did 23.976/50/59.94Hz and was True Cinema branded - but without MotionFlow - when I bought my first Blu-ray player as I can't watch 3:2 - and no European TV uses it)
Reply
(2019-11-13, 18:13)noggin Wrote:
(2019-11-13, 18:05)Boulder Wrote:
(2019-11-13, 17:57)noggin Wrote: I have a 49XF9005 (the UK version of the X900F I believe).   However I have MotionFlow entirely disabled - as I want to watch at native frame rate (or as near as possible) without any artefacts added by consume-grade frame rate conversion (I want to see the sources I play as close to the control room/grading suite quality as I can - and no control rooms or grading suites use MotionFlow-type processing).  

When you say 'jerky movement' what is the frame rate of the material you are playing and what is the frame rate you are outputting it at?  I can enable the MotionFlow on my TV and compare what I see with what you see? (I have an N2, a Minix U9-H, an nVidia Shield TV original version and an unhealthy number of Raspberry Pis and Chromeboxes)     

The source fps is 23.976. I don't know what the final rate is, I would expect the TV to use the 24p mode. But it doesn't show that in the display info, I see only 720p (looks like Kodi outputs at the closest fitting resolution if my source is like 1280x544). With no resolutions selected from the whitelist, everything works fine with MotionFlow at True Cinema.

I probably need to compare a 1280x544 and a 1280x720 source at 23.976 fps. Maybe the difference comes from what Kodi actually outputs.      

When you don't have Whitelisted resolutions selected do you still have Adjust Frame Rate enabled in Player settings (On Start Stop or On Start?)

What do things look like if you disable MotionFlow entirely?

AIUI True Cinema MotionFlow is for 23.976Hz content played at 59.94Hz content with 3:2 pulldown - it detects and removes the 3:2 to generate a 23.976Hz signal. This isn't needed if your Kodi source outputs 23.976Hz natively via whitelisting or adjust frame rate (as there is no 3:2 to detect and remove)?  It's really more useful for broadcast TV sources in North America (where 3:2 is standard for 23.976Hz stuff - whereas in Europe we don't use it)

I may be wrong - but that's my understanding of what True Cinema Motion Flow does.

(Sony used the standalone True Cinema branding for their TVs that accepted native 23.976p inputs back in the day. I had to replace my first gen 40" Sony LCD that did 50/59.94Hz-only with one that did 23.976/50/59.94Hz and was True Cinema branded - but without MotionFlow - when I bought my first Blu-ray player as I can't watch 3:2 - and no European TV uses it) 
I've not touched the Adjust frame rate settings so it is enabled and at start/stop in both cases.

If I set MotionFlow to 'Off', everything's good. I just tested on an episode of Rome and there's stutter in random places with panning if MotionFlow is True Cinema or Custom with any values from 1 on. Anything I've encoded myself is always progressive and at the native frame rate or double-rate. I was just thinking what would happen to telecined sources such as DVDs or some Blu-rays are played in Kodi with MotionFlow disabled. Does Film mode cover them? I think it has something to do with that.

So basically, with whitelisted resolutions and display rates, I have to set MotionFlow to 'Off' because I get stutter. I don't know what Kodi does to the output when I've not selected anything. Does it output at the highest detected supported rate? Maybe that explains why MotionFlow doesn't cause the same effect then.

I also found out that the Sony detects 23.976 and true 24 fps sources differently. 24 fps was detected as "720p 24p" whereas 23.976 fps was just "720p". I don't know if there is any difference in the actual display rate though. My old LG plasma had a separate 24p mode.
Reply
(2019-09-09, 08:25)CiNcH Wrote: Sony BRAVIA X900F - Android TV 8.0 Oreo4K HDR capabilities:
  • HDR10 supported (e.g. Netflix, Prime Video etc.)
  • Dolby Vision supported (e.g. Netflix, Prime Video, etc.)
    ("only" single-layer Dolby Vision a.k.a. dvhe.stn supported though)
  • VP9-PQ (VP9.2) supported in YouTube and Google Play Movies
  • HLG supported (only tested for HEVC, not for VP9)
  • HDR10+ not supported
General A/V capabilities:
  • switches between HDR (BT.2020) and SDR modes depending on content
  • superb upscaling
  • decent deinterlacing (no frame doubling in case of MediaCodec playback though)
  • no display mode/refresh rate switching (Motionflow performs decent frame rate conversion)
  • proper Passthrough support for Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus (including Atmos) and DTS
  • DTS-HD API broken (no stable sound output)
  • 100mbps Ethernet port only
  • WiFi 802.11ac can achieve a stable net throughput of up to 250mbps (at optimal signal conditions)
  • 4K @ 60p causes stuttering over network
Kodi capabilities:
  • HEVC HDR10 working
  • HEVC HLG working
  • VP9-PQ (VP9.2) working (proper HDR mode switching currently only via inputstream.adaptive)
  • Dolby Vision not yet supported (MX Player working properly)
  • GUI colors/luminance off when playing HDR content
 

How do you playback stuff on MX Player, is there a way to stream from network shares?
Reply
Exclamation 
The Apple TV 4K does wrong tone mapping.
Tested with LG 65B8.

With content above 1000 nits:
ATV: https://imgur.com/G3suTXN
Internal player: https://imgur.com/ion1KHu

With Mehanik test pattern:
ATV: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EAlJEG2...TkhSy/view
S905X3 + CoreELEC: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yfsZN_9...uRbJy/view
Reply
(2019-12-19, 17:28)djnice Wrote: The Apple TV 4K does wrong tone mapping.
Tested with LG 65B8.

I think you are confusing Tone Mapping on a media player with its ability to pass thru MaxCLL/FALL HDR Infoframe data from HDR video sources.

The Apple TV 4K does not do MaxCLL/FALL HDR Infoframe data passthrough.

Tone mapping is what a 4K HDR TV does with HDR video and Metadata to map such video to each 4K HDR TV’s individual display characteristics.

Even then different TV brands all go about Tone Mapping differently. So results will vary for differing combos.

I’m not seeing drastically different 4K HDR picture outputs when using say an Odroid N2 vs an Apple TV 4K (MrMC) in combo with my Panasonic GZ OLED TV.

There is a detailed post about Tone Mapping here: https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?pid...pid2897271

Reply
(2019-12-20, 05:36)wrxtasy Wrote:
(2019-12-19, 17:28)djnice Wrote: The Apple TV 4K does wrong tone mapping.
Tested with LG 65B8.

I think you are confusing Tone Mapping on a media player with its ability to pass thru MaxCLL/FALL HDR Infoframe data from HDR video sources.

The Apple TV 4K does not do MaxCLL/FALL HDR Infoframe data passthrough.

Tone mapping is what a 4K HDR TV does with HDR video and Metadata to map such video to each 4K HDR TV’s individual display characteristics.

Even then different TV brands all go about Tone Mapping differently. So results will vary for differing combos.

I’m not seeing drastically different 4K HDR picture outputs when using say an Odroid N2 vs an Apple TV 4K (MrMC) in combo with my Panasonic GZ OLED TV.

There is a detailed post about Tone Mapping here: https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?pid...pid2897271 

Ok, you are right, but the ATV clipping the HDR content above 800 nits. This is wrong.
Try with Spears & Munsil Demo.
Reply
(2019-12-20, 08:45)djnice Wrote:
(2019-12-20, 05:36)wrxtasy Wrote:
(2019-12-19, 17:28)djnice Wrote: The Apple TV 4K does wrong tone mapping.
Tested with LG 65B8.

I think you are confusing Tone Mapping on a media player with its ability to pass thru MaxCLL/FALL HDR Infoframe data from HDR video sources.

The Apple TV 4K does not do MaxCLL/FALL HDR Infoframe data passthrough.

Tone mapping is what a 4K HDR TV does with HDR video and Metadata to map such video to each 4K HDR TV’s individual display characteristics.

Even then different TV brands all go about Tone Mapping differently. So results will vary for differing combos.

I’m not seeing drastically different 4K HDR picture outputs when using say an Odroid N2 vs an Apple TV 4K (MrMC) in combo with my Panasonic GZ OLED TV.

There is a detailed post about Tone Mapping here: https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?pid...pid2897271 

Ok, you are right, but the ATV clipping the HDR content above 800 nits. This is wrong.
Try with Spears & Munsil Demo.

ATV 4K might be "wrong" in regards to video source MaxCLL/FALL HDR Infoframe data passthrough - but as I have said previously various 4K HDR TV's Tone Map differently.
It's not "One Size fits all" when we start talk 4K HDR TV Tone Mapping, especially Premium 4K HDR TV's that do their own sophisticated on the fly image analysis, prior to Tone Mapping.

Some 4K HDR TV's it seems (like my Panasonic GZ OLED), when it's doing it's own HDR Dynamic Tone Mapping.
Produces, visually to me - identical picture detail, and HDR brightness Tone mapped results when using MrMC on the ATV 4K vs CoreELEC Kodi on the ODROID N2.
Both picture output results are superb ! Smile

(tested with Spears & Munsil -2160p BT2020 10,000 nits clip)

These days you cannot simply discard one media player over another when we are talking 4K HDR.
4K HDR TV picture processing play a BIG part in picture output results as well. Wink

And just to add to the mix - some 4K HDR Bluray's do not even include MaxCLL/FALL HDR Infoframe data, as seen here:
(PS: My GZ OLED has Panasonic's next gen. HCX Pro Intelligent processor in it vs the Panasonic UB9000's older 2018 HCX Processor)

Why Panasonic UB9000's HDR Optimiser is Such A Killer Feature (click)

W.

Reply
(2019-12-21, 06:24)wrxtasy Wrote:
(2019-12-20, 08:45)djnice Wrote:
(2019-12-20, 05:36)wrxtasy Wrote: I think you are confusing Tone Mapping on a media player with its ability to pass thru MaxCLL/FALL HDR Infoframe data from HDR video sources.

The Apple TV 4K does not do MaxCLL/FALL HDR Infoframe data passthrough.

Tone mapping is what a 4K HDR TV does with HDR video and Metadata to map such video to each 4K HDR TV’s individual display characteristics.

Even then different TV brands all go about Tone Mapping differently. So results will vary for differing combos.

I’m not seeing drastically different 4K HDR picture outputs when using say an Odroid N2 vs an Apple TV 4K (MrMC) in combo with my Panasonic GZ OLED TV.

There is a detailed post about Tone Mapping here: https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?pid...pid2897271 

Ok, you are right, but the ATV clipping the HDR content above 800 nits. This is wrong.
Try with Spears & Munsil Demo. 

ATV 4K might be "wrong" in regards to video source MaxCLL/FALL HDR Infoframe data passthrough - but as I have said previously various 4K HDR TV's Tone Map differently.
It's not "One Size fits all" when we start talk 4K HDR TV Tone Mapping, especially Premium 4K HDR TV's that do their own sophisticated on the fly image analysis, prior to Tone Mapping.

Some 4K HDR TV's it seems (like my Panasonic GZ OLED), when it's doing it's own HDR Dynamic Tone Mapping.
Produces, visually to me - identical picture detail, and HDR brightness Tone mapped results when using MrMC on the ATV 4K vs CoreELEC Kodi on the ODROID N2.
Both picture output results are superb ! Smile

(tested with Spears & Munsil -2160p BT2020 10,000 nits clip)

These days you cannot simply discard one media player over another when we are talking 4K HDR.
4K HDR TV picture processing play a BIG part in picture output results as well. Wink

And just to add to the mix - some 4K HDR Bluray's do not even include MaxCLL/FALL HDR Infoframe data, as seen here:
(PS: My GZ OLED has Panasonic's next gen. HCX Pro Intelligent processor in it vs the Panasonic UB9000's older 2018 HCX Processor)

Why Panasonic UB9000's HDR Optimiser is Such A Killer Feature (click)

W. 

I understand, but I see the ATV is clipping, and the bright details are lost even if I enabling the DTM on LG 65B8. See this picture: https://imgur.com/G3suTXN
I think this is not a wrong metadata problem. 
Do you see the details in the snowy landscape with your equipment?
Reply
(2019-12-21, 10:15)djnice Wrote:
(2019-12-21, 06:24)wrxtasy Wrote:
(2019-12-20, 08:45)djnice Wrote: Ok, you are right, but the ATV clipping the HDR content above 800 nits. This is wrong.
Try with Spears & Munsil Demo. 

ATV 4K might be "wrong" in regards to video source MaxCLL/FALL HDR Infoframe data passthrough - but as I have said previously various 4K HDR TV's Tone Map differently.
It's not "One Size fits all" when we start talk 4K HDR TV Tone Mapping, especially Premium 4K HDR TV's that do their own sophisticated on the fly image analysis, prior to Tone Mapping.

Some 4K HDR TV's it seems (like my Panasonic GZ OLED), when it's doing it's own HDR Dynamic Tone Mapping.
Produces, visually to me - identical picture detail, and HDR brightness Tone mapped results when using MrMC on the ATV 4K vs CoreELEC Kodi on the ODROID N2.
Both picture output results are superb ! Smile

(tested with Spears & Munsil -2160p BT2020 10,000 nits clip)

These days you cannot simply discard one media player over another when we are talking 4K HDR.
4K HDR TV picture processing play a BIG part in picture output results as well. Wink

And just to add to the mix - some 4K HDR Bluray's do not even include MaxCLL/FALL HDR Infoframe data, as seen here:
(PS: My GZ OLED has Panasonic's next gen. HCX Pro Intelligent processor in it vs the Panasonic UB9000's older 2018 HCX Processor)

Why Panasonic UB9000's HDR Optimiser is Such A Killer Feature (click)

W. 

I understand, but I see the ATV is clipping, and the bright details are lost even if I enabling the DTM on LG 65B8. See this picture: https://imgur.com/G3suTXN
I think this is not a wrong metadata problem. 
Do you see the details in the snowy landscape with your equipment?

Yes I looked again at that Snow scene and I can see the exact Same texture details in the Snow when using both devices. (N2 and ATV 4K)
I can also pick out all the tiny bright white metal wrinkles of the Wind Turbine cap at 5:15 on both.

Later on there is a White desert scene (5:20) and I can see the same picture details in the really bright white sand.

The amount of detail is quite astonishing with the Birds of Prey and Chameleons Smile

I guess your LG B8 OLED goes about Dynamic Tone mapping a bit differently vs my Panny GZ OLED, and likely needs something like an ODROID N2 that does correct MaxCLL/FALL HDR Infoframe data passthrough so the LG can correctly processes incoming video and keep picture detail in difficult Peak Bright HDR scenes without too much clipping.

Also just tested with CE 9.2 on an AMLogic S912 and - Yes - I can see white clipping in the Snow scenes when using that combo.
The real giveaway is if you cannot see the Treeline ridge in the snowy background when the Horses are grazing.

W.

Reply
LG OLEDs need correct MaxCLL/FALL for best HDR output.
Reply
(2019-12-21, 14:50)dwalme Wrote: LG OLEDs need correct MaxCLL/FALL for best HDR output.
As I see now, so it's the best to say that the ATV 4K is not for "everyone's TV" and the safest way to go is to get a full HDR meta passthrough capable player a priori.
---------

wrxtasy:
Quote:Correct - MaxCLL/FALL HDR Infoframe data output ?
Intel / AMD X86_64 - YES if using a custom Windows Kodi v19 build from 345566 (thread) & 4K capable Nvidia GPU
Why only Nvidia? I have read the thread back in a while and it also worked on AMD GPUs (even with XXXXG APUs), or it there something problematic with those?
Reply
(2019-12-23, 12:59)Mount81 Wrote: wrxtasy:
Quote:Correct - MaxCLL/FALL HDR Infoframe data output ?
Intel / AMD X86_64 - YES if using a custom Windows Kodi v19 build from 345566 (thread) & 4K capable Nvidia GPU
Why only Nvidia? I have read the thread back in a while and it also worked on AMD GPUs (even with XXXXG APUs), or it there something problematic with those?

There is a problem with AMD APUs. It's been posted in that thread.
Reply
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