2019-03-26, 00:05
proliferation can be good yes but its been bad for KODI IMHO
2019-03-26, 10:37
I understand where Team Kodi stands as far as Windows goes. Windows is a mess. It always has been, and now more than ever it just does way too much in the background to be a good fit for Kodi. We don't even need to talk about how just today it popped up an extremely invasive window to say "Update me now, or else!"...twice.
That said, at least for now (it's changing ever so slowly), Windows is still the primary OS if you want to get most things done and don't have a separate machine for media.
I'm in firm support of DSPlayer or any means to improve Kodi without making it less customizable, one of the core benefits of it. If I wanted the Apple mentality of, "trust us, we are smarter than you and know better what you want," then I'd be using Plex. I don't, and I appreciate Team Kodi standing firm in their beliefs through all the bull.
I'm sure @mclingo wasn't trying to be rude, as there's really no nice way to say, "I don't think you have your priorities right." I do assume that while Team Kodi has a ever-dwindling care for what users think is best, they do care about the overall quality of something they pour literally years of their lives into.
That said, I'd hope that what users say have at least a little impact. I agree that the video player needs work. As a developer and someone who has tried to set up a development workspace and help if even a little, I can say that anything you guys get done is commendable. That code base is a nightmare to get started in. Even if all you did was a major release that's nothing but code cleanup and bug fixes/stability improvements, I would thank you for your time.
That said, at least for now (it's changing ever so slowly), Windows is still the primary OS if you want to get most things done and don't have a separate machine for media.
I'm in firm support of DSPlayer or any means to improve Kodi without making it less customizable, one of the core benefits of it. If I wanted the Apple mentality of, "trust us, we are smarter than you and know better what you want," then I'd be using Plex. I don't, and I appreciate Team Kodi standing firm in their beliefs through all the bull.
I'm sure @mclingo wasn't trying to be rude, as there's really no nice way to say, "I don't think you have your priorities right." I do assume that while Team Kodi has a ever-dwindling care for what users think is best, they do care about the overall quality of something they pour literally years of their lives into.
That said, I'd hope that what users say have at least a little impact. I agree that the video player needs work. As a developer and someone who has tried to set up a development workspace and help if even a little, I can say that anything you guys get done is commendable. That code base is a nightmare to get started in. Even if all you did was a major release that's nothing but code cleanup and bug fixes/stability improvements, I would thank you for your time.
2019-03-26, 12:30
indeed, coming across as rude, or even ungrateful is the last thing I want to do.
2019-03-27, 20:11
(2019-03-26, 12:30)mclingo Wrote: indeed, coming across as rude, or even ungrateful is the last thing I want to do.
me too, i am very grateful, but right now i can't live without DSPlayer, we cut the cord a long time and KODI is the GUI for my HTPC in the lounge with Sonos I need DSP for 5.1 DD Surround conversion, DTS is not supported and Sonos defaults to stereo if its not Dolby Digital. And of Course HDR Support.
2019-03-27, 21:31
(2019-03-25, 12:32)mclingo Wrote: we all hate using KODI with external players.
I'm perfectly happy using external player(s) and internal player with the official releases of Kodi.
2019-03-28, 00:20
That's a pretty brazen confession. badump tsss. External players, aside from being hideous when they switch view modes, steal focus, don't follow your skin design, and other annoying cosmetic reasons, almost never support gamepad controls, and if you are lucky, then the mapping is usually not the same as the rest of Kodi. You don't get watched state handling or anything else. Kodi may work on a desktop or heaven forbid a laptop, but it's a ten foot interface, and it was intended to be gamepad or remote controlled since its conception.
2019-03-28, 13:53
(2019-03-28, 00:20)da3dsoul Wrote: That's a pretty brazen confession. badump tsss. External players, aside from being hideous when they switch view modes, steal focus, don't follow your skin design, and other annoying cosmetic reasons, almost never support gamepad controls, and if you are lucky, then the mapping is usually not the same as the rest of Kodi. You don't get watched state handling or anything else. Kodi may work on a desktop or heaven forbid a laptop, but it's a ten foot interface, and it was intended to be gamepad or remote controlled since its conception.Yeah, in fact... let's not turn this into a debate about personal preferences. If you check my registration date you can believe me when I say that I "campaigned" back then to allow for external players. But external players are an option. And for all the reasons stated above they have limits. If one is happy with external players, I'm happy for him/her. But I don't think it's unreasonable to wish for VideoPlayer to get as good as it can.
2019-03-28, 14:00
(2019-03-28, 13:53)ashlar Wrote:(2019-03-28, 00:20)da3dsoul Wrote: That's a pretty brazen confession. badump tsss. External players, aside from being hideous when they switch view modes, steal focus, don't follow your skin design, and other annoying cosmetic reasons, almost never support gamepad controls, and if you are lucky, then the mapping is usually not the same as the rest of Kodi. You don't get watched state handling or anything else. Kodi may work on a desktop or heaven forbid a laptop, but it's a ten foot interface, and it was intended to be gamepad or remote controlled since its conception.Yeah, in fact... let's not turn this into a debate about personal preferences. If you check my registration date you can believe me when I say that I "campaigned" back then to allow for external players. But external players are an option. And for all the reasons stated above they have limits. If one is happy with external players, I'm happy for him/her. But I don't think it's unreasonable to wish for VideoPlayer to get as good as it can.
They could just fork VLC and save a bunch of work...
2019-03-28, 14:28
Haha VLC. It would play anything, that's for sure, but I'm not sure it's the right direction for many reasons.
MPV has been talked about, even if not supported or accepted as a good idea by the devs, and I think, at the very least, it would be a good alternative to trying to write everything yourself with DVDPlayer or VideoPlayer as a starting point. I don't remember the reasons that MPV was shot down as a possibility, if it was ever stated, but it's the choice of whoever does the work.
MPV has been talked about, even if not supported or accepted as a good idea by the devs, and I think, at the very least, it would be a good alternative to trying to write everything yourself with DVDPlayer or VideoPlayer as a starting point. I don't remember the reasons that MPV was shot down as a possibility, if it was ever stated, but it's the choice of whoever does the work.
2019-03-28, 18:14
lol, if we just wanted a media player there are already loads of MADVR configarable options already, MPC-BE and HC are both very good and stable, VLC wouldnt even be considered, its pants lets face it.
I'm guessing, like me, people what the media library and stuff from KODI which, its still far superior to media portal IMHO.
I'm guessing, like me, people what the media library and stuff from KODI which, its still far superior to media portal IMHO.
2019-03-28, 18:27
(2019-03-28, 00:20)da3dsoul Wrote: That's a pretty brazen confession. badump tsss. External players, aside from being hideous when they switch view modes, steal focus, don't follow your skin design, and other annoying cosmetic reasons, almost never support gamepad controls, and if you are lucky, then the mapping is usually not the same as the rest of Kodi. You don't get watched state handling or anything else. Kodi may work on a desktop or heaven forbid a laptop, but it's a ten foot interface, and it was intended to be gamepad or remote controlled since its conception.hideous when they switch view modes - Huh?
steal focus - I would hope so. When playback is finished, Kodi returns in focus automatically. So what's the problem?
don't follow your skin design - Huh?
other annoying cosmetic reasons - I'm not watching cosmetic interfaces. I'm watching the movie play back.
never support gamepad controls - I'm not using a gamepad. I'm using a remote control.
the mapping is usually not the same as the rest of Kodi - So? Adjust mapping. I use one remote control. It controls the entire Kodi GUI and its player as well as all the external players simultaneously and harmoniously. I provided settings in my guide as did Warner.
You don't get watched state handling or anything else - I do?
Kodi may work on a desktop or heaven forbid a laptop, but it's a ten foot interface, and it was intended to be gamepad or remote controlled since its conception. - Huh?
You had a reply in here from a user stating we "all" hate using KODI with external players. Well, not "all" of us hate using them unless this is a private thread for external player haters only? I prefer them when applicable and so do many others. (see my guide and warner's for instance). I find the ability to include them highly diverse when the internal official VideoPlayer insufficient for the task at hand. Thank you Kodi devs for making this possible all these years.
You are more or less stating that not only is VideoPlayer insufficient, so are external players because of the reasons above. I find those reasons petty and some of them simply untrue but understand something like the inability to control an external player with a 'gamepad' a real deal breaker. You make it appear that DSPlayer is the only answer to everything. If it was, I'd use it too. Do you find the inability to playback iso's petty? Do you find your unofficial forked version of Kodi being left in the dust dependent on one MIA author petty? I think those two reasons alone far outweigh the detriments you describe when using an external player(s) but that's just my opinion.
Call me crazy but I just don't see the closed source software madVR ever integrating with the open sourced official Kodi. You have been flat out told not a chance in hell. I also don't anticipate anyone in their right mind upgrading the deteriorating forked DSPlayer v17.6 to v18 and beyond let alone creating something similar and maintaining it. We're already on 18.2 approaching v.19. If you think you can bribe someone to create a plug-in and maintain that too, I wish you the best of luck. I really do. In the mean time, I thought it appropriate to suggest external player(s) are not "hated" by "all" and can produce what DSPlayer did and more, aside from some of your arguments against it/them. Maybe you could try embracing one or more external players and your main problem(s) will be solved. Mine are.
2019-03-28, 19:36
thanks for your input brazen but its not really what this thread is about, we just want to discuss getting MADVR baked into KODI in some form which doesn't use external players, so I guess on some level you've stumbled on a thread full of people who dont like external players, probably best you ignore this thread if its not your bag.
2019-03-29, 00:52
(2019-03-28, 18:27)brazen1 Wrote: Call me crazy but I just don't see the closed source software madVR ever integrating with the open sourced official Kodi. You have been flat out told not a chance in hell. I also don't anticipate anyone in their right mind upgrading the deteriorating forked DSPlayer v17.6 to v18 and beyond let alone creating something similar and maintaining it. We're already on 18.2 approaching v.19. If you think you can bribe someone to create a plug-in and maintain that too, I wish you the best of luck. I really do. In the mean time, I thought it appropriate to suggest external player(s) are not "hated" by "all" and can produce what DSPlayer did and more, aside from some of your arguments against it/them. Maybe you could try embracing one or more external players and your main problem(s) will be solved. Mine are.
Emphasis above mine. That's not what FernetMenta has replied to the specific question about madVR as a binary add-on. Which would mean *not* integrating it with Kodi. Is the Netflix plugin integrated with Kodi? Is Prime Video's? They are not. Yet they exist and people use them. If madVR could be created as a binary add-on, it would satisfy those that would like to use it without disturbing anything else.
For everything else, yeah... mclingo got it right. People using DSPlayer and participating in this discussion must have their reasons not to use external players. And I don't think this is the appropriate discussion to antagonize that choice.
2019-03-29, 04:16
Woah there. I wasn't trying to be offensive. I was just listing possible reasons to not use external players, some of which are mine. External players aren't the silver bullet fix all cure cancer solution. If they work for you, good on ya.
Switching view modes is something that happens with a common configuration that hopes to avoid tearing and other artifacts by allowing the player to take full control of the display. Some TVs and video cards are okay with it and play nice. Others... Don't.
You may be the type that never pauses, rewinds, or goes to the subtitle/info panels during a video. I use the features that Kodi offers during video playback, and they naturally don't work in external players.
Stealing focus, while it sounds like the intended action, is a bug in Windows dating back forever, where a fullscreen application refuses to allow input of any kind to the rest of the operating system. Normally, it's a good thing, until it's not.
You have watched states working? Huh... I'm guessing it's a situation where you play the file, and even if you stop it 5s, it gets marked. Unless you have a very custom method to make it work properly with resume and proper timing with seeking, it generally doesn't.
My comment about the 10 foot interface is that Kodi, previously and often still known as XBOX Media Center, was designed to be used in a living room with a gamepad or the Windows Media Center Remote. When those don't work natively, then I consider it a flaw. I use a gamepad. It's just a cheaper method to allow handing someone a remote and when they ask what the controls are, you say, "it's a PlayStation controller. You know the controls. Right analog stick is volume, and everything else is what you'd expect." There are exceptions, usually more expensive, but all of the media center remotes I've seen require mapping buttons to do things that the text doesn't match. Press volume up, it controls Windows volume, not Kodi's. Not a problem if you are using an external player, but it's only one example. If you know of a reasonably priced remote that works well, do tell. I'm always looking for good options. I consider sub $100 as reasonable, depending on compatibility and programmability. If it was a remote with tiny screen buttons like that Stream Deck thing I've seen, then yeah, it's probably more than $100, but justly so.
Switching view modes is something that happens with a common configuration that hopes to avoid tearing and other artifacts by allowing the player to take full control of the display. Some TVs and video cards are okay with it and play nice. Others... Don't.
You may be the type that never pauses, rewinds, or goes to the subtitle/info panels during a video. I use the features that Kodi offers during video playback, and they naturally don't work in external players.
Stealing focus, while it sounds like the intended action, is a bug in Windows dating back forever, where a fullscreen application refuses to allow input of any kind to the rest of the operating system. Normally, it's a good thing, until it's not.
You have watched states working? Huh... I'm guessing it's a situation where you play the file, and even if you stop it 5s, it gets marked. Unless you have a very custom method to make it work properly with resume and proper timing with seeking, it generally doesn't.
My comment about the 10 foot interface is that Kodi, previously and often still known as XBOX Media Center, was designed to be used in a living room with a gamepad or the Windows Media Center Remote. When those don't work natively, then I consider it a flaw. I use a gamepad. It's just a cheaper method to allow handing someone a remote and when they ask what the controls are, you say, "it's a PlayStation controller. You know the controls. Right analog stick is volume, and everything else is what you'd expect." There are exceptions, usually more expensive, but all of the media center remotes I've seen require mapping buttons to do things that the text doesn't match. Press volume up, it controls Windows volume, not Kodi's. Not a problem if you are using an external player, but it's only one example. If you know of a reasonably priced remote that works well, do tell. I'm always looking for good options. I consider sub $100 as reasonable, depending on compatibility and programmability. If it was a remote with tiny screen buttons like that Stream Deck thing I've seen, then yeah, it's probably more than $100, but justly so.
2019-03-29, 20:07
Sort of hard to ignore when you keep replying to me. I'm not here to squash your dreams. I'm not here to antagonize you. I support your quest because I respect all Kodi and madVR users. We have something in common. I implement Kodi and madVR my way and you another. I really don't care which you use. I have nothing to gain or lose. The problem here is when you make erroneous blanket statements, someone is going to reply to them. Maybe you do this to elevate the urgency of your feature request. When someone replies that there is already a working alternative somewhat similar to what you seek, you form a 3 man gang. Isn't your ultimate goal to use Kodi and madVR/LAV?
Everyone understands you want a DSPlayer v.18. You want to be current. You want to use some of the new features v.18 offers. You hang on to DSP v.17.6 anticipating at some point it isn't going to work anymore and want your ducks in row before that day comes. You've visited many forums presenting your plea offering a bounty. You've come to realize you're more than likely beating a dead horse and disappointment is setting in. So, I offered a plan B solution. That solution happens to be my plan A. You picked it apart with some truths and some misconceptions. Again, maybe to elevate the urgency of what you seek as others follow your quest. I tried to provide you a personal testimonial based on the points you find detrimental. I could have been more eloquent in my response delivery. My bad. I was just following your tone but meant no offense then or now.
Regarding your latest misconceptions about using external players:
View modes - There are no tearing or artifacts introduced when using an external player vs the DS player. I have no idea how you come up with this?
Pausing, Rewind, Subtitles, Info, etc. - On the contrary, I use all these features both with VideoPlayer and all the externals. Some of the VideoPlayer features are better than externals... and vice versa. Your preferences are different than mine and mine yours. I get it.
Stealing Focus - I run apps in fullscreen and I run apps windowed while presenting audio/video with them. I have absolutely no bug problems created by Windows that you state could happen. Perhaps there is a special unique situation you've ran into. In all these years of software and hardware changes, I haven't.
Watched states - Yes, they are marked in Kodi via an external player. I specifically requested it be 'fixed' long ago and indeed it was addressed I assume by afedchin. Thank you whoever it was. I'd provide details to enhance your knowledge but that would be a waste of real estate here.
PlayStation Controller - You put a lot of detrimental emphasis on external players because they can't be controlled with one of these. Ok. I get it. It's your preference and a deal breaker and you're entitled to that. But to base it on a complete revamp of DSP to continue its popularity? I also get that many others obtain a decent remote no matter the cost after spending thousands and thousands of dollars on the rest of their equipment to bring it all together. Btw, using a gamepad to control a complicated home theatre experience seems rather like a bottleneck than a benefit imo. You are using madVR after all. I wonder how you toggle Kodi functions with it let alone madVR's key maps. Guessing I'd say there is about 50 key functions in Kodi and another 20 in madVR at least. Even if you only actually use a handful of each, the gamepad is insufficient. That or you're missing out on many advanced uses you don't care about which is your preference. Of course none of this was around back when XBMC was only an addition for the first generation XBOX. A lot has changed including many of the blanket statements still used here and elsewhere.
Anyway, to end your gripes about me intruding on your hopes, again, I support you. Do expect some of your statements might be parlayed. The bottom line is, if indeed your forked version of Kodi DSPlayer does not get this binary add-on developed that you are trying to generate from someone, external players that meet the common goal of Kodi and madVR are already realized, in place, in use, and remain under constant development. We all understand that there will be some compromises when and if you adopt this alternative. Imo, those compromises are few and not severe and in actuality offer more than what DSP ever offered solo. I also understand others might consider them too severe to ever consider. Once again, good luck in your quest.
Everyone understands you want a DSPlayer v.18. You want to be current. You want to use some of the new features v.18 offers. You hang on to DSP v.17.6 anticipating at some point it isn't going to work anymore and want your ducks in row before that day comes. You've visited many forums presenting your plea offering a bounty. You've come to realize you're more than likely beating a dead horse and disappointment is setting in. So, I offered a plan B solution. That solution happens to be my plan A. You picked it apart with some truths and some misconceptions. Again, maybe to elevate the urgency of what you seek as others follow your quest. I tried to provide you a personal testimonial based on the points you find detrimental. I could have been more eloquent in my response delivery. My bad. I was just following your tone but meant no offense then or now.
Regarding your latest misconceptions about using external players:
View modes - There are no tearing or artifacts introduced when using an external player vs the DS player. I have no idea how you come up with this?
Pausing, Rewind, Subtitles, Info, etc. - On the contrary, I use all these features both with VideoPlayer and all the externals. Some of the VideoPlayer features are better than externals... and vice versa. Your preferences are different than mine and mine yours. I get it.
Stealing Focus - I run apps in fullscreen and I run apps windowed while presenting audio/video with them. I have absolutely no bug problems created by Windows that you state could happen. Perhaps there is a special unique situation you've ran into. In all these years of software and hardware changes, I haven't.
Watched states - Yes, they are marked in Kodi via an external player. I specifically requested it be 'fixed' long ago and indeed it was addressed I assume by afedchin. Thank you whoever it was. I'd provide details to enhance your knowledge but that would be a waste of real estate here.
PlayStation Controller - You put a lot of detrimental emphasis on external players because they can't be controlled with one of these. Ok. I get it. It's your preference and a deal breaker and you're entitled to that. But to base it on a complete revamp of DSP to continue its popularity? I also get that many others obtain a decent remote no matter the cost after spending thousands and thousands of dollars on the rest of their equipment to bring it all together. Btw, using a gamepad to control a complicated home theatre experience seems rather like a bottleneck than a benefit imo. You are using madVR after all. I wonder how you toggle Kodi functions with it let alone madVR's key maps. Guessing I'd say there is about 50 key functions in Kodi and another 20 in madVR at least. Even if you only actually use a handful of each, the gamepad is insufficient. That or you're missing out on many advanced uses you don't care about which is your preference. Of course none of this was around back when XBMC was only an addition for the first generation XBOX. A lot has changed including many of the blanket statements still used here and elsewhere.
Anyway, to end your gripes about me intruding on your hopes, again, I support you. Do expect some of your statements might be parlayed. The bottom line is, if indeed your forked version of Kodi DSPlayer does not get this binary add-on developed that you are trying to generate from someone, external players that meet the common goal of Kodi and madVR are already realized, in place, in use, and remain under constant development. We all understand that there will be some compromises when and if you adopt this alternative. Imo, those compromises are few and not severe and in actuality offer more than what DSP ever offered solo. I also understand others might consider them too severe to ever consider. Once again, good luck in your quest.
