[seanrolsen]

Hello. First post, Newb, ya ya.. bear with me here. (please.)

I would like to set up a (fairly) unique situation. I would like to put an XBMC in every room in our inn. That would be a total of 13 xboxes.

As these would be in guest rooms, I would mainly want to stream video content. Basically trading up our DVD collection so guests don't have to "accidentally" take home a DVD, or scratch it, etc.

I would like to have a NAS hard drive with something like a NAS adapter attached to a large hard drive (1 or 2 TB) The hard drive obviously would have all of the movies on it. Our collection is almost 1K DVDs. We would add movies slowly, as the porcess of adding/burning/encoding movies seems to take while. (right?)

The xboxes would have either a wifi bridge or wifi game adapter attached. This would be less expensive than having to run cable through the 150 year old mansion... we did it once for cable tv a few months ago, and it was pretty high up there.

My concerns are as follows...

Between Most accepted and Best: What is considered the recommended video format for movies to be played on considering video quality, wireless streaming ability, and disk storage space? I am currently using DVD shrink and AutoGK with lifehackers one-click add-on for DVD Shrink. This combo is taking me about an hour per dvd. Also, when it comes to menus, special features, etc. I would be more than willing to scrap that if it means saving me an extra ? number of minutes/hours per dvd. - you fill in the ?

Second is the Hard drive. If I am having several people access the same drive and the signal is wireless and blah blah... do I need a special hard drive? I would think that a good old external USB 2.0 hard drive connected to a NAS adapter and plugged directly in to my SonicWall tz170 would fulfill my needs. Yay/Nay?

Last is the wireless thing. I can't tell the difference and I have not been able to find anything online about the differences between
A: Linksys by Cisco WET610N Wireless-N Ethernet Bridge with Dual-Band
and
B: Linksys Dual-Band Wireless-N Gaming Adapter
...when it comes to what I plan on doing with them. Should I just go with the cheaper game adapter? It all seems very confusing to me.

Well I had modded my brothers xbox with XBMC a few years ago. I only got to play with it a few months. I just had this idea about a month ago. I have been wanting to do something like this for a while but didn't think of XBMC.

Now all I have to do is find a dozen xboxes to mod.

Thanks for all of you help! I hope that it shows that I did my homework and all, 'cause we all know we hate when people ask questions and you can tell. I am just to the point now where I am going to do this, and this is the last step in my plan before I spend the estimated $2K+ on this project. - Not to mention the time of putting that many movies on a HDD.

One more thing... What is considered "good naming" when it comes to a DVD title and XBMC automatically parsing the info off of IMDB.com? If I have a file called Sweeney_Todd.avi work just as well as SWEENEY.TODD.avi? And if I don't downconvert, does the folder name containing the Audio_TS -which are empty?!- and Video_TS do the work, or is it extracted somehow from a .ifo file or something?

Please Advise and thank you,

~Sean

[rickx]

Hi,
I think video format is not the real problem...if I were you I would simply make isos with the script from xbmc.
Problem no. 1 is wireless in a 150 years house: that's not going to work. You may try something like Devolo dLAN 200 AVplus (*) instead. It should not even cost more than all the wireless bridge stuff you planned.
Problem no. 2 is the server. I'd say: forget an external usb drive! Although you have only a dozen clients, they're probably going to use their boxes, and probably all at the same time...so a real server would be appropriate. The speed of the disk(s) is important. Raid would also help. I'd go for a basic dell server model.
(*) Those networks work nicely over your power line, but they're not secure and they are reachable from the whole building they're attached to. Just in case you think security could be a matter...

[seanrolsen]

rickx-

Thanks for the reply...

When you mean ISOs, you mean ~4GB's per DVD? I could go that route if you recommend that and just get more storage. I thought that the more compression and the smaller the video file - the better the hard drive would do serving it up. Don't know.

I do currently have a WAP4410N wireless N access point that reaches well to all rooms with the help of a HSB2 signal booster with a large antenna and plans for a Hawking brand N booster thing to go out to the cottages better. If you were talking about signal strength, that is not an issue. Network bandwidth of a wireless N ... I have no idea. I also considered the Ethernet Over Power options, but the game adapters are only like $60-$70 bucks each. (Aren't the LAN over 'lectric like $120 or so?)

How do I find out if I really do need a server? I want to know if I need to make that kind of investment. If I do, I know I am going to have a hard time selling the XBMC route vs. an HP Media Server and a wireless media server 'extender' in each room. The cost at that point is about the same when you figure about $200-$250 for the linksys media server extenders. {Are speaking of those in here going to get me killed?}

Thanks,
Sean

[rickx]

isos have some advantages:
- you have the "dvd experience" with menu, extras etc.
- the script makes it fast and easy to copy the dvds to file
- quality is the original
disadvantages are:
- some dvds may not let themselves be ripped so easily
- size/bandwidth

You may reduce all dvds to 1gb or 700mb with still decent quality and a certain advantage for their wired/wireless distribution, of corse. But that will take forever, I don't have to tell you...plus you loose the advantages above.
4 gb x 1000 = 4 tb. that's a lot, but not sooo much nowadays.

Regarding wireless, you are free to try and test, but it's not (only) a matter of signal strength. Wireless networks are like old wired networks with hubs instead of switches: you have the full bandwidth when you're alone. When there's one more user, your bandwidth is halved. And so on - until you have 1/10th with 10 users. Consider that are theoretical values which means optimistic. Then try to transfer a big file over the wireless network, so you can calculate what it's actual (optimal?) bandwidth is. Then divide that by 10 and if that's still enough to stream something...ok. I'm pessimistic...or realistic though. It's often hard to stream something to one single client in my flat here although I have both sender and receiver with "n" standard (ok there are lot's of other networks here which disturb mine).

Regarding comparing xbmc to other solutions...well that brings to an infinite all-involving discussion. You may reduce it to user experience on one side, vs. hardware/technological solution with optimal price/performance/whatever on the other. I've never seen the HP system you mention {also because HEY I don't want to be killed :o} but it sounds like going "the proprietary way" to me - which I do not like.

[joebrady]

You should have had Cat5 cables run when you had that cable put in....not much experience with wireless N, but I've seen lots of people have problems with wireless in general when streaming media. Same with the LAN over electric boxes, but of course, your results may vary.

As the server goes, I don't think it need to be anything new or fancy. I use one of my old (2005) XP system to serve three xboxes in the house. (two are commonly streaming at the same time, wired connections tho.) I think it's got less than 1Gb of RAM, don't remeber the processor speed. But it wasn't even top of the line when I got it 4 years ago. Or you could do this on a smaller scale

If you really want to conserve bandwidth and HD space, rip and convert everything to ~700Mb divx files. Will probably take longer initially, but may save you some troubles later.

Good luck to you!

[Numus]

Save yourself time, money and a headache and run the Cat5e or Cat6 cable.... Wireless is very unstable, especially when you have a possibility of 13-26 (guessing at maximum you might have 13 xboxs streaming and then another 13 computers on the network?!?)... Do not do ethernet over power.. Unless all the electrical wires were replaced you probably have a lower shielding quality on the cables and ethernet over power will give you a horrible signal to noise ratio....
Also please note that ripping dvd's to avi for the use in a business might be a little illegal...

As for server.. Go find an old Dual Xeon Prestonia server (that is all i currently run as mine)... with the possibility of 13 streams at once, this thing is going to run HOT and the xeon's are better capable of working under these situations. I would not go with a single drive, that would be a bad bad idea..
Look into a 4 disk raid 5 array at possibly 1-1.5TB per disk, gives you some security if a drive dies because of the distributed parity, but with the data spread out over 3 drives (really the data is spread out over 4, but one of the drives contains the parity so the data itself is only on 3) it is much easier to stream more content (oppose to a single drive trying to read from multiple sectors at the same time to stream the data)
As for the file name for XBMC to scrap probably... simple answer is dont.. Don't use the xbmc to scrape.. Do it all on the server side and use a program to scrap the file into a nfo and have xbmc read the nfo.. This makes it so you only have to scrape each movie 1 time instead of doing it 13 times.. just set the xboxs up to update library when they are turned on.. Then every week or so clean the library on each xbox (sorry this you have to do on a box per box basis).. this is only required if you delete a movie..

[smcnally75]

Have you thought at all about the laws you'd most likely be breaking by doing this? It's hard enough to try to stay within the law (technically it's illegal to even backup a DVD still at this time), and on top of that you will be placing these in a commercial enviroment. Very bad idea, IMO.

[joebrady]

I say we just give advice on the technical aspects of the question and leave the morality and leagality of the issue up to the original poster.

But, just my 2 cents, since it sounds like a small business, with no extra charge going on for the service. I don't see that it's any different from some of these small hotels and such where you can "check out" a dvd from the front counter.

[zebraitis]

Maybe this'll help...

I have 3 XBMC's in my home. Two hard wired, one wireless.

In my home, I am ok for wireless on the one. If you look in my signature, you can see what I have.

I have opted to back-up my DVD's in ISO format, as I do like the menus, film and extra features. Nearly all fit into a 4 GB copy, As I try to keep the film and menu at or better than 80% compression, with "extras" at 50%.

And, I am now on my second server, because I'm up over 900 DVD's now. Face it: I'm better than a cable channel.

If you are in a position where running wire can still be done without a huge cost, then ABSOLUETLY run the wire. It will make sure that people who expect to have wireless internet access for laptops will not be competing with your video delivery to the rooms.

What I am concerned about in your secenario is concurrent disk access... I know when I do this, I am the only concurrent user... I would have to test to see what would happen if all three of my boxes pulled the same movie at the same time.

Hope that helps.

[seanrolsen]

Hello again.

Thank you all for the replies so far...

I do not quite understand the raid scenario explained by Numus. How many hard drives would that be? I got 12 1.5 TB hard drives out of that. Not sure. If so, that is quite an expense. I guess I just don't get the raid thing.

Speaking of expenses, the server idea might not be so bad if I can get a used server maching online at a site like pacificgeek for a few hundred dollars.

Running Cable is possible to the 8 guest rooms and 2 lobby areas, but we have 3 cottages that can't be done with cable feasably. The cost for running cable is going to be more than $100 per room. That is why I like to game adapters or wireless bridges. (Difference?)

I also had the thought of a QoS type of deal where I use an access point for xboxes, and a seperate one for internet? Just thought of that.

I could test the internet connection by putting a laptop in each of the 3 cottages and I could gather a few more laptops to test in the mansion all wireless at the same time. I have access to a total of 6 computers (1 wired). Perhaps this would give me a good idea of capabilities if I try to access the same file at the same time on a windwos platform? Of would xbmc or SMB handle that differently when accessing a file stored on a server share.

Price is very important. Some people (you know who you are) like to figure out what you need to do what you want, and then decide if you can afford it. I would like to stay in a reasonable budget (~2K?)

I am thinking 50-60 bucks per xbox, $75 for the bridge, game adapter, plus I guess I need another server (min requirements recommended, and OS?) $400 enough to budget for a server? And then some storage. 4x 500GB hard drives still be ok? Thats another $300. Plus time and effort.

Am I getting over my head here? I feel like the wireless thing is not going to work, but then again, the wireless media extenders from companies like linksys do similar file sharing (with an HP Media Server, though) and I can't find anywhere about limitations of network bandwidth on the HP system that I looked at the other day.

Thank you.

Thoughts?

[Numus]

Hello again.

Thank you all for the replies so far...

I do not quite understand the raid scenario explained by Numus. How many hard drives would that be? I got 12 1.5 TB hard drives out of that. Not sure. If so, that is quite an expense. I guess I just don't get the raid thing.

Speaking of expenses, the server idea might not be so bad if I can get a used server maching online at a site like pacificgeek for a few hundred dollars.

Running Cable is possible to the 8 guest rooms and 2 lobby areas, but we have 3 cottages that can't be done with cable feasably. The cost for running cable is going to be more than $100 per room. That is why I like to game adapters or wireless bridges. (Difference?)

I also had the thought of a QoS type of deal where I use an access point for xboxes, and a seperate one for internet? Just thought of that.

I could test the internet connection by putting a laptop in each of the 3 cottages and I could gather a few more laptops to test in the mansion all wireless at the same time. I have access to a total of 6 computers (1 wired). Perhaps this would give me a good idea of capabilities if I try to access the same file at the same time on a windwos platform? Of would xbmc or SMB handle that differently when accessing a file stored on a server share.

Price is very important. Some people (you know who you are) like to figure out what you need to do what you want, and then decide if you can afford it. I would like to stay in a reasonable budget (~2K?)

I am thinking 50-60 bucks per xbox, $75 for the bridge, game adapter, plus I guess I need another server (min requirements recommended, and OS?) $400 enough to budget for a server? And then some storage. 4x 500GB hard drives still be ok? Thats another $300. Plus time and effort.

Am I getting over my head here? I feel like the wireless thing is not going to work, but then again, the wireless media extenders from companies like linksys do similar file sharing (with an HP Media Server, though) and I can't find anywhere about limitations of network bandwidth on the HP system that I looked at the other day.

Thank you.

Thoughts?

?!?!?
Raid 5 is a 4 disk (or more.. it can be 3 but it isnt that great.. 3 disk raid 5 array you loose 33% space.. 4 disk raid 5 you loose 25% space and 5 disk raid 5 you loose 20% space) array with a distrubuted parity..
So if you buy 4 x 1 TB drives you will get 3 TB of storage... yes you loose 1 TB of usable space BUT if a drive dies, you don't loose your data since a single drive can be replaced and the data rebuilt because of the parity bit.. You just have to buy a server or computer with either has a hardware raid setup or run windows server 2008 for raid5 support (vista does not support raid5)

Once again you do not want to just setup harddrives like you do with a computer.... If you have 4 seperate harddrives full of movies and you have 13 people trying to access movies that are all stored on 1 of the harddrives, it will fail.. not a question of if...

http://www.staff.uni-mainz.de/neuffer/sc..._raid.html
RAID-5 is the best choice in multi-user environments which are not write performance sensitive. However, at least three, and more typically five drives are required for RAID-5 arrays.



http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-s...849664.jpg
http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-s...967664.jpg
Those are some pictures of my server.. Dual xeon Presonia with 4 disk sata raid array and 2 independent PATA (ide) drives.. IDE run system files and some data storage but the majority of my videos is either on the raid array or an external raid0 array over firewire...


As for dual access points one dedicated to the xboxs and one dedicated to laptops... you can do something like this but you will have to have completely seperate networks, and you wouldnt be able to put the xbox network on the net... or else you still bottleneck yourself..

[jmarshall]

13 people playing movies, even if highly compressed (eg down to 1mbit/s) is 13mbits/s just to transfer the stream. Network overhead will be on top of that, so double it.

I doubt you'll get the throughput you need with wireless (even wireless N), simple as that. With DVD bitrates (8mbit/s), you'll need more than 100mbit at the server end.

A simple test: Have an xbox in one room and your server in the other. Transfer 1GB of content, and time how long it takes. That'll give you some idea of your network performance to 1 machine at least.

[rickx]

I think the best compromise is: cables for the rooms, wireless (or power lan) to the 3 cottages.
Forget windows server. Any linux will do it, raid 5 is not a new technology. And in case somebody still doesn't know, it's free. Go here (http://www.howtoforge.org) for wonderful "how-to-install"s for a number of different linux server distros. As I said, the disk performance will be important. Buying 500 gb disks today is not a good idea. Actually 1 tb / 1,5 tb give the best price/value ratio. There are caviar green 1,5 tb disks for 90 euros here (in Europe, you guessed it). That's 1,5x5=7,5 tb, 6tb usable disk space for 450 euros. In dollars that's a bit more though...but if you use cables, you don't need those wireless extender things.
I agree that outgoing ethernet is also important: gigabit ethernet and switch are needed. The idea to separate this xbox service from surfing network is good in any case.

[seanrolsen]

Again, thanks.

I am fine with the idea of the xboxes not able to surf the internet, as first time scraping can be done from the server side. Hulu, youtube etc. is not a big deal. Good idea to separate.. I should be able to figure that part out.

I can find 1 TB hard drives for around $100 bucks each. I could go with a linux server, and hope to find an inexpensive comp to put it on.

Wiring the rooms may be the best choice... its just that it is so much more expensive than the wireless option. I am thinking more than double the price. Are you suggesting, do it wired (at least in the 8 rooms) or don't do it at all?

I think I am going to start with just 4. 3 cottages and 1 in the owners quarters; 3 wireless and one wired or wirelss (I don't think I have enough jacks on my router (SonicWall TZ170W).

Linksys support (in US even!) told me that I should have no problem with available bandwidth/thoughput. The only way to find out is to test it, like Marshal suggests. When I get back in town next week, I will do that test. Hopefully I will be able to find a few xboxes for sale in Cincinnati area this week.

Anyone on here have any suggestions on where to get a dozen xboxes.. maybe with XBMC already on them? Or am I better off with Craigslist and eBay?

Thanks,

Sean

[nicoli_k]

I recently bought an xbox from Gamestop for $50 and it came with tv cables (not component unfortunately) and a game controller. It says only 2 per household if you get it online but if you know 5 other people to get one, then there you go. I'm not sure about in-store policy since I've only bought two from Gamestop and they were at different locations.

My cousin bought an xbox off craigslist a year ago and it has recently died. At least with the Gamestop ones they're guaranteed to work although any warranty is void once you mod it unless you are able to restore it to factory settings.