Doing OTA without heavy hardware [Pi, Pi2, Android]
#1
Hey gents

I'm interested in doing OTA without a PC or other more powerful hardware in the picture.
Ideally I'd like to hear from people who have done this with the Raspberry Pi 1 model B, but I'm also interested to hear if anyone has done it with the Raspberry Pi 2 B.
Although I don't have an android tv box at the moment, I'd also appreciate hearing positive experiences in that area as well.

Unfortunately I think the forum software here stops any searches of 3 letters, so you can imagine that limits this topic a little.

Anyways, who's doing OTA with their lesser-powered devices, what were your experiences, and most importantly, what USB tuner hardware did you use with what software?

thanks

Edit : ATSC OTA. I do have a full PC/hdhr setup, but I am evaluating the low power options for relatives.
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#2
Where do you live? Aka what kind of OTA?

If you live in Europe the WeTek Play has a built-in DVB-S2.

If you live in America thank the gods you have access to cheap hardware and get a Chromebox and a HDHomerun.

Pi's should be doing HD OTA as a last resort, a Chromebox has much better deinterlacing.

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#3
Pi 2 B works fine with OpenElec and TV Headend with DVB-T/T2 (PCTV290e and August 210) and DVB-S/S2 (Technisat USB DVB-S2 receiver) for SD MPEG2 (with the licence) and HD H264. 1080i and 576i are deinterlaced quite well, and 720/50p works well as well. Native interlaced content is deinterlaced perfectly watchably (a good quality Bob and potentially better algorithm for SD)

The Chromebox does a better job with interlaced content (it does an excellent Motion Compensated deinterlace for 1080i), and would allow for multiple streams (record one channel and watch another or watch a recording whilst recording a channel) whereas the Pi and Pi 2 have more limited bandwidth.

I've used PogoPlugs and Seagate GoFlex Homes as TV Headend servers as well - and they served 2 1080i streams OK.
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#4
I'm in Canada and using a Chromebox and a HomerunHD. I'm using NextPVR on a windows machine for recording. The setup works great.
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#5
(2015-03-02, 23:36)noggin Wrote: Pi 2 B works fine with OpenElec and TV Headend with DVB-T/T2 (PCTV290e and August 210) and DVB-S/S2 (Technisat USB DVB-S2 receiver) for SD MPEG2 (with the licence) and HD H264. 1080i and 576i are deinterlaced quite well, and 720/50p works well as well. Native interlaced content is deinterlaced perfectly watchably (a good quality Bob and potentially better algorithm for SD)

The Chromebox does a better job with interlaced content (it does an excellent Motion Compensated deinterlace for 1080i), and would allow for multiple streams (record one channel and watch another or watch a recording whilst recording a channel) whereas the Pi and Pi 2 have more limited bandwidth.

I've used PogoPlugs and Seagate GoFlex Homes as TV Headend servers as well - and they served 2 1080i streams OK.

Thanks for speaking up. I notice you don't say anything about HD Mpeg2?
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#6
(2015-03-03, 03:09)bluenote Wrote: Thanks for speaking up. I notice you don't say anything about HD Mpeg2?

Simple reason is that we don't really have HD MPEG2 in Europe (apart from occasional cable channels)

All of our OTA HD and Satellite HD is H264 (aka MPEG4) as we didn't really start going HD until the 2006 World Cup by which time nobody would have chosen MPEG2 over H264. No MPEG2 HD here to test the Pi or Pi 2 with.

I hear good reports from people running their Pis with HD OTA MPEG2 in the States, but also some issues with some cable channels accessed via Windows Media Center server.
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#7
However we do have HD mpeg2 in the land down under.
HD mpeg2 does not need a lot of CPU horsepower to decode.

On the RPi2 playing HD 1080i video, the 4 cores hover around 5% CPU.
De-interlacing SD and HD streams on the RPi 2 results in good video quality.

(2015-01-31, 17:05)popcornmix Wrote: For DVD resolution the Pi will do a motion adaptive deinterlace similar to YADIF.
For higher resolutions (e.g. 1080i) it will do bob. Both will optionally double framerate.

TvHeadend on Linux devices has a very low CPU footprint. My single core ATV1 - TvHeadend server barely gets above 5% load when running TvHeadend.

Running both a backend and frontend on the RPi2 is definately doable, as Noggin has said tho network bandwidth on the RPi 2 using its shared USB (for external HDD recording) and Ethernet is the million dollar question.

If I get time I will try and get TvHeadend on to my old RPi B+ using a spare USB DVB-T Tuner and find out.



Ok got around to doing some testing, Hardware / Software setup:

- RPi B+ on 1100Mhz Overclocking and force_turbo=1 (ie.Overclock all the time, not dynamically)
- NOOBS micro SDHC card
- iPad1 USB power
- USB2 Stick for recordings
- Sony Play TV PAL DVB-T tuner (corrected for Noggin's sanity, read in next post Wink)
- TvHeadend backend, installed from Services in OpenElec 5.05 (Unofficial Repo)
- TvHeadend client (frontend) on Kodi
- Freeview Channels in Oz, broadcast in mpeg2, up to 14Mbps, interlaced naturally.

Results:

- Yes its works, I can record one HD channel to the USB stick and watch another HD Channel, or even play catchup whilst recording.
- Dual Tuner HD recording works, but this does slow down the Kodi GUI markedly.
- Skipping through video is reasonable.
- Channel changes take approx. 5 seconds if recording in the background. Otherwise its about 2 secs.
- Using other TvHeadend client over the network with from the RPi works. Recorded video and OTA.
- I still see the square rainbow occasionally tho.

Conclusion, it works but it is not slick at all when recording and using Kodi for other uses. CPU hits 95% regularly and you need a sorted power supply or a powered USB hub as I'm seeing the dreaded square rainbow in the top right corner of the screen which tells me I have power supply issues.

However, If I kill Kodi itself and leave TvHeadend running as a hedless server. The RPi B+ then become usefull. Even recording two HD channels at once and watching a third over the local network only sees the CPU load at around 65%. No power issues then either.

I would think a RPi2 should work easily as both a backend and frontend, as the CPU load would be spread out across the 4 cores.
That may be my next test.



Ok just tested with the RPi 2 same setup as above, results:

- No Overclocking this time, max CPU load when testing the following resulted in approx 15% CPU load across 4 cores.
- Much better performance, recording 2 HD channels at once and watching a pre recorded HD one does not slow down Kodi GUI
- Snappy changes of channels and skipping through video
- TvHeadend networked client video starts up much quicker.
- Timeshifting is still a WIP, I can pause and resume, but not skip around.

Conclusion, very usable as both a TvHeadend backend and frontend, even with a Networked client.

Hint, I formatted my USB stick as a fuse-ext2 format in OSX and was then able to write to it, no mounting necessary in Openelec. Just hotplug it in.
It pops up in the /media/USBStickname folder on the RPi.

Smile

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#8
(2015-03-03, 03:53)wrxtasy Wrote: - Sony Play TV PAL DVB-T tuner
Aaagh! Really like your posts wrxtasy - but please, there's no such thing as a "PAL" DVB-T tuner... (Well not unless it also has an analogue tuner stage as well as a digital, and the Play TV doesn't)

PAL defines an analogue composite encoding technique nothing more. DVB-T is not "PAL" or "NTSC", it just carries an MPEG2 transport stream which can carry MPEG2, H264 etc. video at either refresh rate (or others). You can carry SD and HDTV in various digital codecs over DVB-T (as is the case with MPEG2 video in Aus, though in Norway, Ireland, NZ etc I believe there is a mix of MPEG2 and H264) and there is no "PAL-ness" to HDTV.

In fact DVB-T is used in 60Hz "NTSC" territories, and the DVB-T tuners we use in 50Hz land work fine there. (Panama, Colombia, Trinidad and Tobago, Myanmar, Taiwan etc. are all former-NTSC territories which now use DVB-T, and almost every DVB-T USB solution is compatible with the 6MHz, 7MHz and 8MHz channel spacings with which DVB-T can be deployed. 6MHz usually in former NTSC territories)

(And to be honest, "PAL" as short hand for 50Hz has always been a bit sloppy, as there are 60Hz versions of PAL, such as PAL-M used in Brazil which is 525/60Hz - aka 480i - but with PAL not NTSC chroma)

Sometimes I should get a life shouldn't I? Wink

I blame the DVD Forum - describing 480/60i discs as "NTSC" and 576/50i discs as "PAL" when neither had a subcarrier involved with them is just a bit sloppy. (NTSC I can just about cope with as it also describes the line standard)

And wrxtasy - the rest of your post describing CPU load etc. was incredibly useful.

As I have said, the one limitation I can see for a Pi 2 as a Live TV solution for more than a couple of channel is that absolutely everything is going over a single USB 2.0 bandwidth IO connection. If you had, say, 4 x DVB-T/T2 USB tuners and were recording 3 services, watching one live, and streaming additional services over the network (TV Headend allows you to receive more than one service per tuner, intelligently allocating tuners based on the mux it needs to tune to receive services - so in the UK we only need 5 DVB-T and 2 DVB-T2 tuners to guarantee to be able to record or watch all channels simultaneously - 6 DVB-T if you are mad enough to record/watch local TV) Recording and/or streaming over the network will require double the IO bandwidth of watching live as well. I think you could start pushing the Pi 2's IO connectivity a bit. If I get a chance I might try to hammer mine! I've got 2 x DVB-T2 (PCTV290e and August 210) and 4 x DVB-T USB tuners (Sony Play TV and a Dual Tuner Hauppauge) I could connect.
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#9
(2015-03-03, 03:53)wrxtasy Wrote: Conclusion, very usable as both a TvHeadend backend and frontend, even with a Networked client.

Hint, I formatted my USB stick as a fuse-ext2 format in OSX and was then able to write to it, no mounting necessary in Openelec. Just hotplug it in.
It pops up in the /media/USBStickname folder on the RPi.

Smile

Wow, this was like Christmas. That's all really great info, thank you so much.
This sounds like it will work for me for single-station setups. I don't suppose you also have a lead on dirt-cheap USB tuners?
I havent seen too much choice in the ATSC ones, and the prices are quite a bit higher than the DVB-T ones.

Anyone else jump in on a good lead for usb tuners? Single and dual would be awesome.

Thanks again wrxtasy, couldn't ask for better info.
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#10
Think OTA ATSC in the US is far less popular than in DVB territories and thus there are fewer USB tuners, and even fewer with solid Linux support sadly. Those that do exist command a premium compared to the cheap sticks we get here.
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#11
(2015-03-03, 11:47)noggin Wrote:
(2015-03-03, 03:53)wrxtasy Wrote: - Sony Play TV PAL DVB-T tuner
Aaagh! Really like your posts wrxtasy - but please, there's no such thing as a "PAL" DVB-T tuner... (Well not unless it also has an analogue tuner stage as well as a digital, and the Play TV doesn't)
Ha, Ha.

I've been Noggin-ed!! Wink

Slip of the Keyboard there, Sony released the Play TV for PS3 in PAL TV territories only as far as I know, although I'm not 100% sure. Maybe it was a PS3 software thing.
But yes the DVB-T tuner hardware itself can be used anywhere where compatible OTA broadcasts are available.

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#12
(2015-03-03, 22:43)bluenote Wrote: Anyone else jump in on a good lead for usb tuners? Single and dual would be awesome.

Thanks again wrxtasy, couldn't ask for better info.
Your welcome. Smile

Have a look at this list for ATSC USB tuner hardware:

http://www.linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/ATSC_USB_Devices

The Hauppauge 1191 WinTV-HVR-950Q Hi-Speed USB HDTV Adapter With Cable TV And ATSC Antenna Connection seems to be the go based on Amazon reviews Smile

http://lifehacker.com/five-best-tv-tuner...1600439009

The Kworld USB ATSC TV Tuner TV Tuners and Video Capture UB435-Q should also work.

http://www.reddit.com/r/raspberry_pi/com...usb_tuner/

The current Linux Kernel on my RPi2 running Openelec / Kodi 15Alpha2 is v3.19.0

Smile

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#13
(2015-03-04, 11:34)wrxtasy Wrote: Slip of the Keyboard there, Sony released the Play TV for PS3 in PAL TV territories only as far as I know, although I'm not 100% sure. Maybe it was a PS3 software thing.
But yes the DVB-T tuner hardware itself can be used anywhere where compatible OTA broadcasts are available.

Yep - think the Play TV was only ever released in DVB-T territories. There is an ISDB-T equivalent called 'torne' which is available in Japan - but I don't think it has been released in the South American market which uses a variant of ISDB-T. Don't think there is an ATSC equivalent.

The Xbox One Digital TV tuner is also available in Europe, and whilst a single tuner device, supports DVB-T2 as well as DVB-T (so works on the newer standard used for HD in the UK, Sweden etc.)
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#14
(2015-03-03, 03:53)wrxtasy Wrote: However we do have HD mpeg2 in the land down under.
HD mpeg2 does not need a lot of CPU horsepower to decode.

On the RPi2 playing HD 1080i video, the 4 cores hover around 5% CPU.
De-interlacing SD and HD streams on the RPi 2 results in good video quality.

(2015-01-31, 17:05)popcornmix Wrote: For DVD resolution the Pi will do a motion adaptive deinterlace similar to YADIF.
For higher resolutions (e.g. 1080i) it will do bob. Both will optionally double framerate.

TvHeadend on Linux devices has a very low CPU footprint. My single core ATV1 - TvHeadend server barely gets above 5% load when running TvHeadend.

Running both a backend and frontend on the RPi2 is definately doable, as Noggin has said tho network bandwidth on the RPi 2 using its shared USB (for external HDD recording) and Ethernet is the million dollar question.

If I get time I will try and get TvHeadend on to my old RPi B+ using a spare PAL USB Tuner and find out.



Ok got around to doing some testing, Hardware / Software setup:

- RPi B+ on 1100Mhz Overclocking and force_turbo=1 (ie.Overclock all the time, not dynamically)
- NOOBS micro SDHC card
- iPad1 USB power
- USB2 Stick for recordings
- Sony Play TV PAL DVB-T tuner
- TvHeadend backend, installed from Services in OpenElec 5.05 (Unofficial Repo)
- TvHeadend client (frontend) on Kodi
- Freeview Channels in Oz, broadcast in mpeg2, up to 14Mbps, interlaced naturally.

Results:

- Yes its works, I can record one HD channel to the USB stick and watch another HD Channel, or even play catchup whilst recording.
- Dual Tuner HD recording works, but this does slow down the Kodi GUI markedly.
- Skipping through video is reasonable.
- Channel changes take approx. 5 seconds if recording in the background. Otherwise its about 2 secs.
- Using other TvHeadend client over the network with from the RPi works. Recorded video and OTA.
- I still see the square rainbow occasionally tho.

Conclusion, it works but it is not slick at all when recording and using Kodi for other uses. CPU hits 95% regularly and you need a sorted power supply or a powered USB hub as I'm seeing the dreaded square rainbow in the top right corner of the screen which tells me I have power supply issues.

However, If I kill Kodi itself and leave TvHeadend running as a hedless server. The RPi B+ then become usefull. Even recording two HD channels at once and watching a third over the local network only sees the CPU load at around 65%. No power issues then either.

I would think a RPi2 should work easily as both a backend and frontend, as the CPU load would be spread out across the 4 cores.
That may be my next test.



Ok just tested with the RPi 2 same setup as above, results:

- No Overclocking this time, max CPU load when testing the following resulted in approx 15% CPU load across 4 cores.
- Much better performance, recording 2 HD channels at once and watching a pre recorded HD one does not slow down Kodi GUI
- Snappy changes of channels and skipping through video
- TvHeadend networked client video starts up much quicker.
- Timeshifting is still a WIP, I can pause and resume, but not skip around.

Conclusion, very usable as both a TvHeadend backend and frontend, even with a Networked client.

Hint, I formatted my USB stick as a fuse-ext2 format in OSX and was then able to write to it, no mounting necessary in Openelec. Just hotplug it in.
It pops up in the /media/USBStickname folder on the RPi.

Smile

So I'm experimenting with Raspbian on an RPI 2, and I've got mythtv / xbmc and tvheadend/xbmc running on it. In comparison to openelec though the performance really sucks. Do you have any ideas about this? Or even, have you tried this and also found it as subpar as I do?

thanks Smile
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#15
Which bit sucks? And do you have the MPEG2 licence installed in all of your setups?
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