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- fional - 2011-09-15
Rygrath Wrote:I've learned to not just put a 1, 2, 3 in that field. XBMC will then sort the thing as 1, 2, 3 and they'll be at the top of the entire list of movies. (I don't know if this behavior has changed, but I ran into it in dharma beta and haven't done it since)
Best to go with
Die Hard 1
Die Hard 2
Die Hard 3
or
DH1
DH2
DH3
Ah, that's a good point! I was just being a bit "lazy" in my description, that's actually how I do it as well, Die Hard 1, Die Hard 2, and so forth.
I really actually like the set manager in EMM-R. It cleans things up real nicely, especially collections like Indiana Jones or someone gifted me a dvd pack of George Carlin comedy (never watched it, but it seems kinda like an American Frankie Boyle??) - well that is like 14 dvds, so creating a set just reduces the clutter.
- Hyram - 2011-09-15
... you're kidding. How needlessly complex can these people make XBMC?! If you're wanting to work with a Set, why on earth would you put the most relevant bit of data in a different place entirely? If I'm driving and want to indicate to turn left, do I have to stop the car and open the boot to flip a lever?
*sigh* the more I work with XBMC and its hangers-on programs, the more I like Windows Media Center. So far, everything seems cursed by a bad case of geek, where everything seems to be made complex and illogical on purpose. Very little of it makes much sense, to be frank.
Oh well, thanks for trying to make things only murky and incomprehensible, instead of being completely incomprehensible.
- fional - 2011-09-15
Hyram Wrote:... you're kidding. How needlessly complex can these people make XBMC?! If you're wanting to work with a Set, why on earth would you put the most relevant bit of data in a different place entirely? If I'm driving and want to indicate to turn left, do I have to stop the car and open the boot to flip a lever?
*sigh* the more I work with XBMC and its hangers-on programs, the more I like Windows Media Center. So far, everything seems cursed by a bad case of geek, where everything seems to be made complex and illogical on purpose. Very little of it makes much sense, to be frank.
Oh well, thanks for trying to make things only murky and incomprehensible, instead of being completely incomprehensible.
First - this isn't XBMC. This is EMM-r. XBMC will import that data from EMM-r. Think of it as a courtesy.
Second - I don't think you carefully read my description nor explanation. It isn't needlessly murky and not at all analogous to having to go out to the boot to flip a lever.
It's not at all that the most relevant piece of data is in a different place. That's a very misleading and deceptive comment, because the "Sort Title" field has implications beyond "Set Manager". Absolutely it does. It determines the sorting order whether you are using a set or not. Have a look at the .nfo file or read the .nfo wiki and think about it for half a minute, hopefully it should become clear, if comprehensive education is to be defended.
It actually makes a lot of sense. I'm assuming you'd scrape the movie before you'd create the set. In doing so, you can adjust the order. Now a lot of scrapes, it will properly set the Sort Title field as what would be typically desired. Not always, however, as would be the case for the last Die Hard (for example.) In that instance, the sort title scrape won't likely put it as Die Hard 4 (or whatever it was), but rather Die Hard - Blah blah blah whatever the film name was.
The reason, I believe, that you can't adjust the set order from the set manager, as that wouldn't make sense and would be prone to a lot of problems.
With the set manager in its current state, all it does is add a tag to the .nfo telling the .nfo file what set that movie belongs to.
That's all "sets" does. Not just in EMM-R, but in general.
How sets, or any film is sorted, is done by the sorting tag. It wouldn't make any sense or be feasible (in my opinion) to have that sorting tag adjusted by clicking some up or down arrow in the set manager. That doesn't make sense. How would that impact the sort tag?
If you had a look in the .nfo and examined it, you'd have a better understanding of how this works.
Perhaps a more clear analogy, if you forgive the Hibernian snarkyness, would be someone trying to drive a car, but refusing to turn the ignition and insisting that's too much of a hassle because one's hands are already on the wheel. Followed by moaning about how nonsense it is that the key has to be turned, after someone explained the mechanical purpose of such a requirement.
- Glave - 2011-09-15
fional Wrote:Doesn't it sort it using the sorting title field?
Actually just edit your movies, and the Sort Title field will take care of sorting inside of sets.
IE- I have my Sort Title set like: HarryPotter1, HarryPotter2, etc
- fional - 2011-09-15
Glave Wrote:Actually just edit your movies, and the Sort Title field will take care of sorting inside of sets.
IE- I have my Sort Title set like: HarryPotter1, HarryPotter2, etc
Oddly enough, he doesn't want to do that
- Hyram - 2011-09-15
All the movies I have are scraped, but none of them (once I found out where it was actually buried) have anything in the Sort box.
Reading the relevant page about all this just confuses me further. and just increases my frustration. It just makes no sense to focus on the reliance of manual text file editing (and I didn't know a .NFO was text until I read that page) for a system that's essentially, meant to be wholly visual, because the entire raison d'etre for using a GUI is to overcome the shortfalls of a textually oriented paradigm.
Failures of XBMC program structure aside, I feel that the Sets Manager of EMM-R should be able to define and maintain the ordering of items within the set. If this means replicating the ability to manually edit the Sort Title (or better yet, provide a user-guided automatic system) then this should be done. Anything else is neither sensible, logical, nor intuitive.
- Glave - 2011-09-15
Hyram Wrote:All the movies I have are scraped, but none of them (once I found out where it was actually buried) have anything in the Sort box.
The Sort field is an entirely optional field. It only exists for the sole purpose of organizing something in a different order than the default alphabetical (although you're truly just manipulating the alphabetical order).
If you're new to XBMC, this is the point to realize now: XBMC can be as simple as you initially see it, or it can also be a very monstrous complex and highly customized beast, but it doesn't have to be. You may see this as a shortcoming, but I don't think most do.
- fional - 2011-09-15
Hyram Wrote:All the movies I have are scraped, but none of them (once I found out where it was actually buried) have anything in the Sort box.
Reading the relevant page about all this just confuses me further. and just increases my frustration. It just makes no sense to focus on the reliance of manual text file editing (and I didn't know a .NFO was text until I read that page) for a system that's essentially, meant to be wholly visual, because the entire raison d'etre for using a GUI is to overcome the shortfalls of a textually oriented paradigm.
Failures of XBMC program structure aside, I feel that the Sets Manager of EMM-R should be able to define and maintain the ordering of items within the set. If this means replicating the ability to manually edit the Sort Title (or better yet, provide a user-guided automatic system) then this should be done. Anything else is neither sensible, logical, nor intuitive.
I think a big part of this is you're a bit confused as to what is what. Citing this as a failure of XBMC doesn't make sense as this is a media manager that can be used with Media Centre, XBMC, on its own, etc.
As far as XBMC and .nfo files, XBMC doesn't have to create them. In fact, to my knowledge, it won't create them on its own unless you export your library. You *can* use XBMC to scrape your collection natively. You do not have to use a third-party media manager.
With regard to the specific problem in EMM-R - your scrapping should have information in the sort title field. If it doesn't, you incorrectly set something up, as it is possible to have it auto-fill.
I'm relatively new and definitely had no hand at creating EMM-r, nor am I the most technically inclined individual, but after reading the documentation/forum and playing with it - it makes sense and works brilliantly for me. It was very fast at scraping 20Tb of films/tv shows.
Though I find it a bit distasteful to go on about what a free programme "should" do. There are other media managers that also work with XBMC, and I tried most of them and it wasn't for me. Perhaps they may work better for your needs - I can say that there's definitely one that has licensing fees.
https://licensing.mediacentermaster.com/compare_versions.aspx
I'm sure if you buy a license for that programme, you'd have a legitimate sense of entitlement and can give advice on what should and shouldn't be.
- clubwerks - 2011-09-15
Some people like to sort alphabetically, default, and some people like to sort by release. Count me among the latter and I'm extremely happy that I have those kinds of choices. To me, nothing would be a bigger waste of time than making movie sets and not being able to list them in the proper order.
- Rygrath - 2011-09-15
Hyram Wrote:All the movies I have are scraped, but none of them (once I found out where it was actually buried) have anything in the Sort box.
Reading the relevant page about all this just confuses me further. and just increases my frustration. It just makes no sense to focus on the reliance of manual text file editing (and I didn't know a .NFO was text until I read that page) for a system that's essentially, meant to be wholly visual, because the entire raison d'etre for using a GUI is to overcome the shortfalls of a textually oriented paradigm.
Failures of XBMC program structure aside, I feel that the Sets Manager of EMM-R should be able to define and maintain the ordering of items within the set. If this means replicating the ability to manually edit the Sort Title (or better yet, provide a user-guided automatic system) then this should be done. Anything else is neither sensible, logical, nor intuitive.
Have you seen some of the setups on the front page that people are running XBMC with? Some of them are professional setups. The reason being is XBMC is HIGHLY configurable and customizable. That allows a user to specifically tailor their media experience. Which is something Media Center doesn't even come close to. I used it for a week and thought it was much to "user friendly" as I couldn't tailor it to my needs which then made it useless.
You can make this as easy or as complex as you wish. Set management isn't built into XBMC as they haven't gotten around to making a UI for it. If you are a programmer feel free to put in a patch to fix this "short coming", it is open source "free" software.
All that said, it doesn't hurt to read up on a lot of this as you go further into XBMC. Especially when first setting things up. There is a lot to know which can save you tons of work redoing mistakes. What seems overly complicated to you, I was able to figure out in a half hour when I got around to sets.
For Ember, after you get all your movie information squared away and setup just as you like. You then begin to create your sets in Sets Manager, from what I can tell you figured that much out.
You then go to each of those movies and put in a sort title as the examples I've given you previously (This can be done when first scraping the movie into Ember).
Edit: When you scrape a new movie into Ember, it brings up the Movie Information panel that allows you to double check the information, fanart, poster, ratings etc. At this time when putting in a new movie you can easily just add in a Sort Title of your choosing. Then when you go to put the movie into the set via Set Manager, it will be in the order you have defined during the creation of the movie, negating the need to go back to it. Just one of those things you learn as you use the tools.
This may seem tedious, but it's only done once and usually when first setting up your library. 2 years later and I haven't had a need to go back and redo anything except maybe add a new movie to the set and put in a sort title, which is less than a minute of work. Yes, it would have been nicer if they put this functionality into Set Management, but they didn't. You just learn to work with the tools given, find another, or create your own.
The sort title is a optional field made for people that like to organize a movie other than alphabetically by name, year, release date, etc. This is why it's not scraped as IMDB.com and moviedb.org do not have a "sort title". XBMC sorts by whatever field you have to sort by in the library browsing. It will override this though with "sort title". It's just another one of those "tweaker" fields to allow fine tune tailoring. Usually ignored by most everyone until you have a "it'd be neat if I can do it this way" moments.
If you have already scanned your movies into XBMC, then yes, there is a extra step you need to do since your movies weren't setup during the initial scan. Which is refreshing the movies by going to the movie library, selecting the movie, hitting "I" to go into info and choosing refresh.
If this seems like too much work, the other option is to change the Content Type of your Movie source to "None" and remove all movies from the library. Then change the content type back to "Movies" and rescan it all in.
Now that you have your sets correctly setup, they will be scanned in correctly into XBMC.
Again, seems like a shortcoming, but in any piece of software that gives you ultimate control of how it works, it's going to be complicated when you dig into it. It's as easy or as complex as you make it out to be.
Also you said:
Quote:It just makes no sense to focus on the reliance of manual text file editing (and I didn't know a .NFO was text until I read that page) for a system that's essentially, meant to be wholly visual, because the entire raison d'etre for using a GUI is to overcome the shortfalls of a textually oriented paradigm.
That is the end result to the people that eventually sit down in front of the TV and pick up the remote.
To get to that point there will be some "behind the scenes" work. Even Windows Media Center needed this with things like MetaBrowser to create the .xml files. You will never find a media center than can automatically get all the information correct 100% of the time. If it does, you aren't going to be able to control what it displays.
- Rygrath - 2011-09-15
fional Wrote:I think a big part of this is you're a bit confused as to what is what. Citing this as a failure of XBMC doesn't make sense as this is a media manager that can be used with Media Centre, XBMC, on its own, etc.
As far as XBMC and .nfo files, XBMC doesn't have to create them. In fact, to my knowledge, it won't create them on its own unless you export your library. You *can* use XBMC to scrape your collection natively. You do not have to use a third-party media manager.
With regard to the specific problem in EMM-R - your scrapping should have information in the sort title field. If it doesn't, you incorrectly set something up, as it is possible to have it auto-fill.
I'm relatively new and definitely had no hand at creating EMM-r, nor am I the most technically inclined individual, but after reading the documentation/forum and playing with it - it makes sense and works brilliantly for me. It was very fast at scraping 20Tb of films/tv shows.
Though I find it a bit distasteful to go on about what a free programme "should" do. There are other media managers that also work with XBMC, and I tried most of them and it wasn't for me. Perhaps they may work better for your needs - I can say that there's definitely one that has licensing fees.
https://licensing.mediacentermaster.com/compare_versions.aspx
I'm sure if you buy a license for that programme, you'd have a legitimate sense of entitlement and can give advice on what should and shouldn't be.
Well said.
- Rygrath - 2011-09-15
Another quick thought on the matter. Once you have a Movie Set, setup in XBMC. When you go into that set, you can change the Sort Order to Release Date if you don't want to mess with the Sort Title in Ember. This should work pretty well for most everything minus Star Wars or sets with prequels.
All skins have a menu option when browsing movies for "Sort By", you just toggle through the options until you get to "Release Date". The same side menu where you change your views.
- Hyram - 2011-09-15
Glave Wrote:XBMC can be as simple as you initially see it, or it can also be a very monstrous complex and highly customized beast, but it doesn't have to be. You may see this as a shortcoming, but I don't think most do.
Considering the attracted userbase, perhaps. From a larger usability viewpoint, completely wrong. NOTHING needs to be "monstrously complex". Like many opensource projects, XBMC is an example of how geeks get it completely and totally wrong, because they have no understanding about what people do not want.
fional Wrote:As far as XBMC and .nfo files, XBMC doesn't have to create them. In fact, to my knowledge, it won't create them on its own unless you export your library.
A function I see as now out of date and superfluous.
Quote:I find it a bit distasteful to go on about what a free programme "should" do
I don't; I see it as the all-important (and oft-ignored) feedback between user and developer. Programming is a two way street, and what goes back to the developer(s) is more important than what comes out -- another factor that hampers open source, often badly.
Quote:if you buy a license for [a] program, you'd have a legitimate sense of entitlement and can give advice on what should and shouldn't be.
What a ridiculous point of view! Programming is a service to the customer; meet the demands of the customer adequately and you will be compensated, the closer you match the customer's requirement the greater your reward will be.
And before you interject, I always reward those who make my life less complex, or provide me with tools to make it so -- this includes sending money to the authors of "freeware" if they've made available something I find useful and usable. This always has been and always shall be a fundamental tenet of the way I live, and as such I became an active promoter of the original shareware concept in the early 80's.
Do a good job, you get paid. Do a better job, you get paid and a tip. Do an excellent job, you get pay, a healthy gratuity, and free advertising in strong recommendations from a happy customer to everyone they meet. Fuck it up, and that ex-customer will recommend the competition over you, even if the competition is a vastly inferior product.
Give people what they don't want, and they'll return repeatedly with an open wallet.
Rygrath Wrote:Have you seen some of the setups on the front page that people are running XBMC with?
Unfortunately.
Quote:Some of them are professional setups. The reason being is XBMC is HIGHLY configurable and customizable. That allows a user to specifically tailor their media experience.
Only because the nature of the project appeals predominantly to others of like mind -- by geeks, for geeks. To someone with a more worldly perspective, XBMC (and most other open source projects such as Firefox) is the digital equivalent of a Mecanno set (made in China, complete with many pieces having holes that almost but not quite line up where they're supposed to) covered in rice paper, balsa wood, and sprayed in shiny. Looks nice, does what the builder wanted, but poke it in the wrong place, use the wrong screw or try to add something not factored into the original design and it crumples into a mess of struts and bolts.
(And if you poke your digital snout into any of the other vaguely technomedia oriented forums, the most common piece of advice given about XBMC is this: "Once you get it working, DON'T SCREW WITH IT.")
Quote:Set management isn't built into XBMC as they haven't gotten around to making a UI for it. If you are a programmer feel free to put in a patch to fix this "short coming", it is open source "free" software.
If it's not built into it yet, why do they have half the structure already in place? That's like having a glazier install second floor windows when the first floor walls aren't up. "Interface first" is the golden rule for technological development.
I do program, but not with any of the complexity-cursed systems, languages and IDEs that infest IT today. Hence, I will reward those that do who can make what I want, or close to it.
Quote:it doesn't hurt to read up on a lot of this ...
*sigh*
Geeks are told "If you want people to read the manual, write a better manual." HCI & usability professionals say "If you need a manual then you're doing it wrong."
I make no apologies about my stance -- usability is something I've been passionate about for nearly forty years, and it constantly irks me to see promising projects being hamstrung by bass-ackwards mentalities and toxic overdoses of geek that continually place nooses of complexity around the neck of IT and stop it from moving forward. Insulting, you say? No, merely honest to a fault, but do remember this -- the only person in your life that can hurt you emotionally is you; if anything I have said has made you feel angry, hurt and/or upset it is because there is more than a grain of truth to the facts I have made you aware of.
- gmk2 - 2011-09-15
Hyram Wrote:rant rant rant.
Please stay on topic guys - Ember. No active development bar the occasional jump in, a few caring souls guiding the current userbase as we dream of a revitalization.
- Rygrath - 2011-09-15
I still fail to see your point of view on this. You are pulling out one simple feature out of a truck load that this software provides, putting it in the spot light and going on how it's not implemented properly.
It is not overly complex. I have used damn near every 10 foot media display UI out there. Every..single..one has it's short comings. Every one. Media Center? Made for the Apple type user that can handle plugging in the computer, pointing at folders and that's about it. Want more? Too bad.
Media Browser? Requires Media Center and requires quite a bit of customizing and setup. Media Portal, Boxee, MythTV, SageTV, list goes on. Every persons wants and dislikes are different. Have you seen the feature requests forum? It's non-stop. Simple fact, and for 40+ you should know this better than most. You cannot and will never please everyone.
For this one thing "sets", you have been given simple instructions. I have done it for well over 20 sets and I don't find it complicated at all. To each their own I suppose.
Ember if you are not aware is not being actively developed anymore by the original developers. The community has picked it up and works to keep it up to date, but you probably won't be seeing new features put in any time soon.
For the most part, XBMC is completely automated. Point it at your media folders, set the type of content that it is, and have it scanned into the library. Very little user intervention is needed. What is complicated about that?
Want to get into fancier details like manually picking the artwork and movie sets? Well, you'll need to get your hands a bit more dirty and learn the intricacies of the software. How is this any different than a program like Word or Excel? You can go into it and do basic stuff with no knowledge of how it works. Want to get into Pivot tables or advanced formatting? Gotta read up and learn it. Learning curve to everything.
This geeks argument you bring up is a little overboard to be honest. Sure, the interface can be refined. However, the devs work on their own spare time, for no money compensation. Their time is limited and they do what they can based on their priorities.
So take no apologies in your stance, it is your opinion. You may have valid feed back, but you are putting it in the wrong place. Go to Feature Requests and list your feed back there, that is how you can help make things better. Realize that XBMC is used in several thousand installations around the world. Many are non geeks. And being ever evolving software, what isn't in today, may be in tomorrow.
Quote:If it's not built into it yet, why do they have half the structure already in place? That's like having a glazier install second floor windows when the first floor walls aren't up. "Interface first" is the golden rule for technological development.
I do program, but not with any of the complexity-cursed systems, languages and IDEs that infest IT today. Hence, I will reward those that do who can make what I want, or close to it.
Maybe because it's a new feature that people have requested? Maybe the devs don't see it as a priority, or many people don't use the feature? So they put in the core function for the minority that do use it and come back to finish up the UI at a later time. Only people that will mess with it are people like yourself ie: media geeks.
You really are making this more complicated that it needs to be. After the initial setup you now know. When you scrape a new movie that will be part of a set, put in a Sort Title before hitting "OK", go to Sets Manager, put the movie into the set. Update XBMC library and you are done.
You see this quite often with new people in any software forum. A person finds the one thing they don't get. Get really frustrated about this one feature that doesn't fit how they seem to want it to work and ignore everything else that does work. Goes with the territory I guess.
Just to show you an example of what it looks like when setup
And when you go into the set
Quote:No, merely honest to a fault, but do remember this -- the only person in your life that can hurt you emotionally is you; if anything I have said has made you feel angry, hurt and/or upset it is because there is more than a grain of truth to the facts I have made you aware of.
Angry, hurt and/or upset? Heh, not in the least. Nothing better than seeing random quotes of "person in your life that can hurt you emotionally is you" and balsa wood in a topic about setting up a movie set in 4 easy steps.
Anyways, the question has been answered. If you want to have changes done, best to post further in the Feedback forum and we'll go back to Ember discussion in this thread. Apologies for the off-topicness of the posts.