2011-10-02, 15:11
Sorry that I'm replying to these comments backwards..
Just as a quick disclaimer, I'm not a programmer. My username might say "TeamXBMC" under it, but I'm only a support member. I help out on the forums and the XBMC Wiki, and sometimes with testing.
Bringing XBMC up to date with FFmpeg, which is where our Hi10 support would come from (and also brings a bunch of other great features) is a big task.
And let me be clear about this, Hi10 is a great feature. I welcome its inclusion in XBMC.
The Devs want to support Hi10 and all the other things this ffmpeg update would bring. They also want to support a ton of other things too, but it's crunch time for Eden and we are now in a feature freeze. Work still continues on all of these things, but they just won't be a part of the stable Eden release that most of the public uses.
From a technical standpoint, XBMC's playback abilities are not the best when you compare it to other software players. The ffmpeg component of DVDPlayer (the part of XBMC that plays back video) is quite dated, but because the demand for certain codecs/profiles has stabilized so much it probably hasn't been very noticeable.
I bring stay this because XBMC's real selling point is its rich features and 10-foot interface is second to none. Which doesn't mean video playback is bad at all, it just means XBMC isn't the cutting edge of a single raw feature that most people won't notice. (see here as well for how many people this will likely affect.)
You can also configure XBMC to use another video player. It just takes some tinkering, but you can have the XBMC interface and a Hi10 player in one. You do have options, and it will come to XBMC's built-in player, it just takes time when it's not the only feature waiting to be added.
Most of the fansub groups are not going to Hi10 only. I'm looking at tokyotosho's listings now. Don't believe the fear hype that some groups are using to force adoption, mostly out of their own fear that someone else put into them. You'll probably see some of these "Hi10 exclusive" groups suddenly supporting the previous h.264 profiles, too. It's easy for a group to get worked up about a new feature, especially when things haven't really changed in a long time. It's even easier for groups to go through encoders like paper cups.
I am honestly sorry if that is how I made you feel. I'm not opposed to Hi10, I just think this hype around it is way overblown. I like new, better things. I like it when my anime looks its best. However, all Hi10 can do is save HDD space. No source content is in 10bit color depth. The only quality improvements is the quality per megabyte which is what results in those smaller file sizes. Even then some encoders still aren't using Hi10 correctly. When you see some saving only 30MB and some saving 100MB, someone's doing it wrong.
Again, it's not Hi10 that I oppose, it's just this hype. It's silly. It's not even a new profile, and there's a bunch of other h.264 profiles out there that will save even more space that no one even bats an eye at.
The trade off in compatibility is not worth the file size saved, which I'll go into further in my next reply. EDIT: I got my posts mixed up. I ended up blabbering on waay too long in the next reply and didn't even get to the actual technical numbers on Hi10. Give me a bit here and I'll post about that too.
magao Wrote:Ned - you've commented that the Eden soft-freeze means that 10-bit will not be included in Eden. Given the fact that people are being affected by this now, and the upstream work has been done, what is the reasoning?
Just as a quick disclaimer, I'm not a programmer. My username might say "TeamXBMC" under it, but I'm only a support member. I help out on the forums and the XBMC Wiki, and sometimes with testing.
Bringing XBMC up to date with FFmpeg, which is where our Hi10 support would come from (and also brings a bunch of other great features) is a big task.
And let me be clear about this, Hi10 is a great feature. I welcome its inclusion in XBMC.
The Devs want to support Hi10 and all the other things this ffmpeg update would bring. They also want to support a ton of other things too, but it's crunch time for Eden and we are now in a feature freeze. Work still continues on all of these things, but they just won't be a part of the stable Eden release that most of the public uses.
Quote:I would have thought that "10-bit encode support" would be a major selling point for Eden. Yes - it's only for people who have machines who can handle it. I personally built an HTPC that was capable of decoding H.264 high profile back in the day when XBMC didn't support hardware decoding of that. I'm more than willing to upgrade that very machine (if needed) to be able to play back 10-bit. If XBMC doesn't integrate 10-bit though then I don't have that option at all.
From a technical standpoint, XBMC's playback abilities are not the best when you compare it to other software players. The ffmpeg component of DVDPlayer (the part of XBMC that plays back video) is quite dated, but because the demand for certain codecs/profiles has stabilized so much it probably hasn't been very noticeable.
I bring stay this because XBMC's real selling point is its rich features and 10-foot interface is second to none. Which doesn't mean video playback is bad at all, it just means XBMC isn't the cutting edge of a single raw feature that most people won't notice. (see here as well for how many people this will likely affect.)
You can also configure XBMC to use another video player. It just takes some tinkering, but you can have the XBMC interface and a Hi10 player in one. You do have options, and it will come to XBMC's built-in player, it just takes time when it's not the only feature waiting to be added.
Quote:And it's not as though people are only just now bringing this up. We've been saying for months that most of the fansub groups are going to be moving to 10-bit only. It appears that we weren't believed ... that it would only be a small group of fansubbers changing ... that there would be "choice".
The last week has proved otherwise.
Most of the fansub groups are not going to Hi10 only. I'm looking at tokyotosho's listings now. Don't believe the fear hype that some groups are using to force adoption, mostly out of their own fear that someone else put into them. You'll probably see some of these "Hi10 exclusive" groups suddenly supporting the previous h.264 profiles, too. It's easy for a group to get worked up about a new feature, especially when things haven't really changed in a long time. It's even easier for groups to go through encoders like paper cups.
Quote:BTW, we've been arguing on those forums for months as well that the infrastructure isn't ready except in a few very specific cases. In every case the response has basically been "use the exact same setup as me or STFU".
I am honestly sorry if that is how I made you feel. I'm not opposed to Hi10, I just think this hype around it is way overblown. I like new, better things. I like it when my anime looks its best. However, all Hi10 can do is save HDD space. No source content is in 10bit color depth. The only quality improvements is the quality per megabyte which is what results in those smaller file sizes. Even then some encoders still aren't using Hi10 correctly. When you see some saving only 30MB and some saving 100MB, someone's doing it wrong.
Again, it's not Hi10 that I oppose, it's just this hype. It's silly. It's not even a new profile, and there's a bunch of other h.264 profiles out there that will save even more space that no one even bats an eye at.
The trade off in compatibility is not worth the file size saved, which I'll go into further in my next reply. EDIT: I got my posts mixed up. I ended up blabbering on waay too long in the next reply and didn't even get to the actual technical numbers on Hi10. Give me a bit here and I'll post about that too.
