2013-12-12, 12:15
Gotham also has this now https://github.com/xbmc/xbmc/pull/3589
Would should mean better de-interlacing where it is offloaded to the GPU.
Would should mean better de-interlacing where it is offloaded to the GPU.
2013-12-12, 12:22
(2013-12-11, 22:46)Ed76 Wrote: i tested xbmc frodo final (windows) and i can say the picture quality with dsplayler and the "right" codecs (lav) is much better than dvdplayer. xbmc dvd player picture have powerless colors and is blurred. if you use a small tv or a pc-monitor the difference maybe is not visible but with a big tv ( i have 42") the difference is huge. especially if you use ffdshow for postprocessing (sharpen). sadly dsplayer doesnt support livetv, so i have to use mediaportal because of the much better picture quality.
Sounds to me like you prefer a processed image and are altering the native image which will actually degrade picture quality, particularly applying sharpening to the image, however if that's your preference then that's fine.
2013-12-12, 13:05
Using DSPlayer is all about being able to watch things with the filters u want or not.
I think DSPlayer is not for everyone, first due to the difficulty of using it, and second due to the fact many people don't even notice differences where others do. Personally i can't live without it, but it's a personal point of view, like others have in the oposite way (that i respect very much). And other people will be for example, satisfied enough setting external players like MPC-HC where u can use other filters that fit ur taste.
In my case, i wanna be able to use lav or whatever filter i prefer, BUT i love XBMC and don't wanna lose the GUI and all the goodies, so my answer is DSPlayer.
U will have hundred ppl saying there's no quality difference and hundred ppl saying there's indeed difference. My point is, the only difference is watching it using this or that or sticking with DVDplayer. Both are good and respectable.
I think DSPlayer is not for everyone, first due to the difficulty of using it, and second due to the fact many people don't even notice differences where others do. Personally i can't live without it, but it's a personal point of view, like others have in the oposite way (that i respect very much). And other people will be for example, satisfied enough setting external players like MPC-HC where u can use other filters that fit ur taste.
In my case, i wanna be able to use lav or whatever filter i prefer, BUT i love XBMC and don't wanna lose the GUI and all the goodies, so my answer is DSPlayer.
U will have hundred ppl saying there's no quality difference and hundred ppl saying there's indeed difference. My point is, the only difference is watching it using this or that or sticking with DVDplayer. Both are good and respectable.
2013-12-12, 13:39
Choice is indeed good.
However some things to bear in mind before anyone starts using a build with DSPlayer:
1) Unless you have specific issues it's probably best to stick with a official build of XBMC using DVDPlayer.
2) DSPlayer builds are more complex to setup and probably best used by people who already understand how to use Directshow Filters.
2) DSPlayer will never be merged into mainline code now no one from the Team is working on it, thus any issues won't be supported here except by fellow users on the DSPlayer thread.
3) DSPlayer is being continued by one developer in Russia who could cease development at anytime with no guarantee anyone else would pick it up.
Note these are my impression only as I've not followed development too closely since Tiben & blinkseb abandoned DSPlayer.
However some things to bear in mind before anyone starts using a build with DSPlayer:
1) Unless you have specific issues it's probably best to stick with a official build of XBMC using DVDPlayer.
2) DSPlayer builds are more complex to setup and probably best used by people who already understand how to use Directshow Filters.
2) DSPlayer will never be merged into mainline code now no one from the Team is working on it, thus any issues won't be supported here except by fellow users on the DSPlayer thread.
3) DSPlayer is being continued by one developer in Russia who could cease development at anytime with no guarantee anyone else would pick it up.
Note these are my impression only as I've not followed development too closely since Tiben & blinkseb abandoned DSPlayer.
2013-12-12, 14:20
I do not use DSplayer but I do use another external player. I like to use it because I can change what I want about the video. I have no problem with XBMC's player, but for some videos, it's nice to have a broader range of control/fine tuning. Some of my videos are kinda' crappy to begin with and need a lot of help sometimes.
Don't want to start a debate, but as far as modifying the "original" video, I have to ask, what is "original" (not quoting anybody, just emphasizing). A video goes through so much processing before we begin to watch it that it seems absurd to worry about post-processing. The only time I really worry about post-processing is when I use an underpowered PC and I want to reduce lag. I look at post-processing like I look at the video controls on my TV (more post-processing, just like my eyeglasses, another step). If I want to reduce brightness, or increase contrast, or whatever, I do it to make things look good to me.
Why argue about it, when the argument can be made as absurd as you want. Reminds me of the old Vinyl (records for you youngsters) enthusiasts who argued for decade about the wonders of vinyl. Everyone has there preference...
Don't want to start a debate, but as far as modifying the "original" video, I have to ask, what is "original" (not quoting anybody, just emphasizing). A video goes through so much processing before we begin to watch it that it seems absurd to worry about post-processing. The only time I really worry about post-processing is when I use an underpowered PC and I want to reduce lag. I look at post-processing like I look at the video controls on my TV (more post-processing, just like my eyeglasses, another step). If I want to reduce brightness, or increase contrast, or whatever, I do it to make things look good to me.
Why argue about it, when the argument can be made as absurd as you want. Reminds me of the old Vinyl (records for you youngsters) enthusiasts who argued for decade about the wonders of vinyl. Everyone has there preference...
2013-12-12, 15:13
the lack of acceptable postprocessing options in xbmc (dvd player) like sharpen is one thing. i only get a compareable good picture quality to my kathrein ufs tv-receiver (which is known for good picture quality) if i use a smal amount of sharpen ("unsharp mask", amount in dependency of the input resolution of the video).
but the picture quality of xbmc dvd player compared to dsplayer with lav codec is easy visible (also without any postprocessing). there is a difference especialy in colors. there is a long threat in the german mp-forum ("mp vs. xbmc" or something like that) and there many people, nearly all people, which have used/compared xbmc and mp, confirm my experiences regarding picture quality under windows. some people say the xbmc dvd player picture quality under linux seems to be better than under windows (xbmc 12 frodo).
but the picture quality of xbmc dvd player compared to dsplayer with lav codec is easy visible (also without any postprocessing). there is a difference especialy in colors. there is a long threat in the german mp-forum ("mp vs. xbmc" or something like that) and there many people, nearly all people, which have used/compared xbmc and mp, confirm my experiences regarding picture quality under windows. some people say the xbmc dvd player picture quality under linux seems to be better than under windows (xbmc 12 frodo).
2013-12-12, 22:33
2013-12-12, 23:57
(2013-12-12, 15:13)Ed76 Wrote: but the picture quality of xbmc dvd player compared to dsplayer with lav codec is easy visible (also without any postprocessing). there is a difference especialy in colors. there is a long threat in the german mp-forum ("mp vs. xbmc" or something like that) and there many people, nearly all people, which have used/compared xbmc and mp, confirm my experiences regarding picture quality under windows. some people say the xbmc dvd player picture quality under linux seems to be better than under windows (xbmc 12 frodo).I would really like to see some examples of this. If you do a search here you will find posts from years back complaining that XBMC picture quality is soft or doesn't look as good as MPC-HC with LAV filters or madVR. I have done an A-B comparison many times, pausing the video on the same frame, and then switching back and forth from XBMC to MPC-HC, and I just don't see a difference, even from a foot away. I don't use any post-processing filters. I consider myself a videophile, I have my plasma calibrated, and if I saw a difference I would have no problem admitting it. The only difference I see is that on test patterns madVR (better dithering algorithm) has less banding than either EVR-CP or XBMC, but that never shows up in actual videos. Has ffmpeg in XBMC improved quality over the years? Is it because I'm using DXVA, or that I have an AMD card? Does LAV filters have better picture quality if it is software decoded? I doubt it, but I would really like to know why so many people can say there is a huge difference and others can say there is no difference at all.
2013-12-13, 01:37
In my opinion, picture quality is subjective. I don't have much problem with HD Video PQ, the reason I still use DSPlayer on one of my system is blockiness problem with most of my japanese TS file. I use Gotham Nightly on my other system and it works fine for most case (with HQ Scaler & Better deinterlacing patch applied recently).
But then when come down to SD Files, I prefer to use FFDShow to do most post processing to help it looks better on HDTV. But that's my personal preference.
But then when come down to SD Files, I prefer to use FFDShow to do most post processing to help it looks better on HDTV. But that's my personal preference.
2013-12-13, 06:52
I get that, but if you don't use ANY post-processing, I don't get how people can say the picture in MPC-HC is dramatically different from XBMC. Especially things like color and sharpness.
2013-12-13, 13:10
(2013-12-12, 23:57)StinDaWg Wrote: Has ffmpeg in XBMC improved quality over the years? Is it because I'm using DXVA, or that I have an AMD card? Does LAV filters have better picture quality if it is software decoded? I doubt it, but I would really like to know why so many people can say there is a huge difference and others can say there is no difference at all.
i use an amd trinity a10 apu and lav with dxva2. my experiences refer to xbmc 12. as far as i know ffmpeg was updated with xbmc 13. i dont have examples but i can tell you the difference was very clear visible (also my girlfiend has noticed the differences).....
2013-12-13, 13:38
(2013-12-13, 13:10)Ed76 Wrote:I've been using Gotham builds for awhile so I've forgot what 12 even looks like. If you can, give 13 a try and let me know if you still think it's bad.(2013-12-12, 23:57)StinDaWg Wrote: Has ffmpeg in XBMC improved quality over the years? Is it because I'm using DXVA, or that I have an AMD card? Does LAV filters have better picture quality if it is software decoded? I doubt it, but I would really like to know why so many people can say there is a huge difference and others can say there is no difference at all.
i use an amd trinity a10 apu and lav with dxva2. my experiences refer to xbmc 12. as far as i know ffmpeg was updated with xbmc 13. i dont have examples but i can tell you the difference was very clear visible (also my girlfiend has noticed the differences).....
I've got to say, I might have to try experimenting with DSPlayer at some point when a Gotham version is made available. I've been trying out some of the post-processing filters in MPC-HC lately. I was shocked at how good 720p->1080p upscaling looked with Bicubic 75 and Sharpen complex 2. Any softness in the picture was cleared up. Facial details that I couldn't see before like pores, freckles, hair, all became suddenly crisp like I was looking at native 1080p content. I know some people think that sharpening is "bad", but in this case it just looked like it was restoring details that were already in the video, without adding any artifacts or looking "fake".
2013-12-13, 15:42
For anyone who thinks a sharpened image is better this is a good read http://www.videophile.info/Guide_EE/Page_01.htm
2013-12-13, 16:45
(2013-12-13, 15:42)jjd-uk Wrote: For anyone who thinks a sharpened image is better this is a good read http://www.videophile.info/Guide_EE/Page_01.htm
first: i dont talk about edge enhancement. there are a lot of sharpen methods, i talk about "unsharp masking", thats completly different.
second: with unsharp masking i can confirm 100% what StinDaWg wrote: "Any softness in the picture was cleared up. Facial details that I couldn't see before like pores, freckles, hair, all became suddenly crisp like I was looking at native 1080p content."
as i sayd: i had a kathrein tv-receiver whitch is known for good picture quality. as i build my htpc i used at first xbmc 12 and compared the picture of livetv between receiver and xbmc by one klick on my remote. the different was huge. the receiver had a much sharper picture and more powerfull color. after that i tried mp+lav+dvxa2 nativ without postprocessing. picture was compared to xbmc a little sharper than xbmc but as not as sharp as tv receiver. colors was much better than xbmc, like the tv receiver. after that i used mp+lav+ffdshow (sharpen, unsharp masking) and that was the only way i get a picture that is 99% as good as the picture of the kathrein receiver. you have to set the amount of sharpnes carefull, not to much and in depency of the video input resolution.
2013-12-13, 17:12
All very good info here. Really glad I asked the question now. The thing is, I may just setup DSPlayer on my test box and see what I can do with upscaling. I used TheaterTek back in the day with MyMovies through MCE (ac3 filter, ffdshow, etc...). It made a big difference then. I wasn't expecting "true" HD, but at least an improvement over my existing SD material. It worked well enough, and didn't look "fake".
There's lots of information on this site, but is there a particular thread that details DSPlayer implementation from step one? I can do it, I just want to do it RIGHT, and not make the mistakes others have.
Scott
There's lots of information on this site, but is there a particular thread that details DSPlayer implementation from step one? I can do it, I just want to do it RIGHT, and not make the mistakes others have.
Scott
