[ronie]

Ronie,

In answer to both these points see here , points 2.1, 2.2 and 2.4. I have no idea on how it is useful to the addon writers as my Python is rudimentary at best, but as it has been requested and it's no major issue to provide this in the skin I don't see why we should not look after this all in one go.

Wyrm

sure thing, but please create a new thread for each item you want to bring up for discussion.
i'm not good at multi-tasking and my head will turn into a mess if we're gonna discuss 30 different items in this thread ;-)

[pecinko]

Yeah let's be nice to our fellow script-ers. However, I fail to see how those fonts would help in say lyric script. But if others see this differently, I'll make a few font tags.

[ronie]

Yeah let's be nice to our fellow script-ers. However, I fail to see how those fonts would help in say lyric script. But if others see this differently, I'll make a few font tags.

if your skin includes a custom lyrics window, then this doesn't matter at all indeed.
it's useful for scripts who's script windows you don't include in your skin.

[bossanova808]

In my case IIRC I wanted them for my addon XSqueeze (a controller for an external music player).

I wanted to build a comprehensive info screen that would ideally work at least tolerably well on all skins. This has some Now Playing, upcoming, artist bio text etc - and i don't want it all the same size. If one can rely on, say, 4 standard sizes being available, that would give some flexibility - kinda like in html

e.g.:
Header 1
Header 2
Body
Small

As it is I have to distribute multiple skin files via that add on wiki, and they get out of date etc. Much easier if a few basics were in place for all 'official' (i.e. in master repo) skins...

[ruuk]

I'm certainly happy to do this. My only question is who would decide on the relevant sizing for each of these fonts, the skin writers or addon writers? I ask this as most of my font sizing tends to be bigger than most other skins (nothing shits me faster than some clown at the TV station rendering text on screen at 3pt Flyspeck).

you as a skinner would decide. you pick 5 sizes that fit your skin, ranging from very small to extra large.

Unfortunately, if the 5 sizes are not consistent between skins, this won't really help. We need sizes we can count on in relation to the controls on which they are placed.

[pecinko]

In my case IIRC I wanted them for my addon XSqueeze (a controller for an external music player).

I wanted to build a comprehensive info screen that would ideally work at least tolerably well on all skins. This has some Now Playing, upcoming, artist bio text etc - and i don't want it all the same size. If one can rely on, say, 4 standard sizes being available, that would give some flexibility - kinda like in html

e.g.:
Header 1
Header 2
Body
Small

As it is I have to distribute multiple skin files via that add on wiki, and they get out of date etc. Much easier if a few basics were in place for all 'official' (i.e. in master repo) skins...

Ok, but I don't see now this suggestion may help. I use basically 2 sizes in Amber, headers and body. Furthermore, if you take a look at lyrics script, there are plethora of controls there, dialog background etc that maybe fits Confluence but do not fit Amber in any way. We will still end up in a unsuitable dialog but with "better" fonts. It's like buying a suit over eshop, without trying it on, comforting yourself that one size fits all.

But if you're happy with this it is a zero problem for me to reserve a few font tags for you guys.

[Jeroen]

I have to agree with pecinko, I don't think it really solves anything.

I'm willing to provide the font tags too though, but I already include Confluence's font tags in my skin as not including them caused problems with certain add-ons when using my skin. If this proposition becomes a "standard" I'd like it to be communicated to add-on developers as such. Im not including these font tags AND Confluence's tags.

[pecinko]

Thinking about Jeroen's solution with Confluence fonts made me thinking - how about making a fallback for fonts and textures to Confluence. This way all scripts will look nice in Confluence, script authors could use all textures and fonts available in Confluence (without a need to have them in script DIR) and though it won't fit other skins it will not look out of place.

1) look in script folder
2) fallback to active skin
3) fallback to Confluence

We just add another list of fonts in Confluence (copy-paste existing ones in fact) and tag them as "System". Those would be reserved fonts.

[Alexqw]

the most requested functionality from addon developers is the ability to use custom fonts in their addons.

Be careful what you wish for.

What is the reasoning behind this? They would like them bigger or smaller than the rest of the skin? Why would they/we want to have that? What is the real problem driving this request by add-on developers; real world use case scenario that proves this request as a valid one?

I support only one addon, but our number one user complaint is layout breakage due to the various fonts skins use. We inherit the skin's font, and along with it its font charactaristics (size, spacing, line height, etc). So the layout breaks and looks offset depending on which skin the user is using.

So all we can do right now is develop for confluence, and tell the user tough love if it looks weird when using a different skin.

---Alex

[nessus]

This "cohabitation" between skins and python scripts was problematic from the very beginning. Actually IMO this should not consider as cohabitation. Scripts are "visitors" in the skin which are responsible for the UI/UX. Most of the python coders they don't see it like that and they code their scripts in a way that suits their needs and when that results to broken/buggy stuff the skin gets the blame.

Example, why the hell a video addon that his purpose is to provide some simple videos to the users, sets the content to TV Shows or Movies ?. Why i as skinner i have to use several visible conditions or stringcompares just to make sure that i will not have an emtpy screen with only a title with no metadata, no proper thumb ect ?

My point is that standardize some fonts size will not make any difference. The python addons section (especially the video addons) needs more strict rules and more standardization so skinners can offer a UI with more consistency and better UX because as it is now, causes UI problems to skins and it's time consuming to fix them.

Cheers
Nessus

[phil65]

The python addons section (especially the video addons) needs more strict rules and more standardization so skinners can offer a UI with more consistency and better UX because as it is now, causes UI problems to skins and it's time consuming to fix them.

Cheers
Nessus

What ronie proposes does not touch plugin integration, that one would be a completely different problem. Ronie´s proposal aims to improve python scripts which include their own xmls.

[Hitcher]

ie TV Show Next Aired.

I guess the 'best' way would be if we make a set of fonts based on some standard heights. That way they'll appear the same height across all skins.

[ruuk]

ie TV Show Next Aired.

I guess the 'best' way would be if we make a set of fonts based on some standard heights. That way they'll appear the same height across all skins.

Yes, this is the best hack until a real solution is developed.

[Jeroen]

This "cohabitation" between skins and python scripts was problematic from the very beginning. Actually IMO this should not consider as cohabitation. Scripts are "visitors" in the skin which are responsible for the UI/UX. Most of the python coders they don't see it like that and they code their scripts in a way that suits their needs and when that results to broken/buggy stuff the skin gets the blame.

Example, why the hell a video addon that his purpose is to provide some simple videos to the users, sets the content to TV Shows or Movies ?. Why i as skinner i have to use several visible conditions or stringcompares just to make sure that i will not have an emtpy screen with only a title with no metadata, no proper thumb ect ?

My point is that standardize some fonts size will not make any difference. The python addons section (especially the video addons) needs more strict rules and more standardization so skinners can offer a UI with more consistency and better UX because as it is now, causes UI problems to skins and it's time consuming to fix them.

Cheers
Nessus

I think phil65 is right in saying ronie's proposal doesn't affect plugin integration, but I totally agree this is by far the most frustrating aspect of add-on's. Something I hope someday will get attention too. That and add-on's hardcoding font colors... There really needs to be a clearer separation of UI and content.

[nessus]

What ronie proposes does not touch plugin integration, that one would be a completely different problem. Ronie´s proposal aims to improve python scripts which include their own xmls.

Phil, i understand that and my apologies to Ronie if my comment was off-topic.
I just think that the Team needs to change the way that allows add-ons to work and operate in a UI that skinners try so hard to make it look beautiful and functional, and i saw an opportunity in this thread to express my long time frustration about this matter.

As for Ronie's proposal i agree with Jeroen. I also include Confluence's font tags in my skin and i can replace them with these. I am not going to keep them both.

Cheers
Nesus