[JaccoH]

I don't see why so many people feel 'attacked' or 'frustrated' by this topic. I'd like to think this is a perfect report to learn from!

[poofyhairguy]

XBMC is a simple program to do a simple thing, put your content on a HD TV, a least that's what I what it to do.

There-in lies the issue: Putting content on a HDTV is not simple.

What is your content? Ripped DVDs? Downloaded tv shows? Ripped Blu Rays?

What does your TV/Av Receiver supports? 24p? DTS/AC3? HD audio?

Finally, how do you plan to control that content? Remote? Keyboard?


See the thing about Boxee is that it assumes the answer to a LOT of these questions. It's scraper is INCREDIBLY forgiving to weird names for content, and it plays back content with just the most basic of features.

For 90% of people that is perfect, and is the perfect niche in which Boxee/Plex exist.

But for some of us, just playing stuff on a TV is not good enough. For me if I don't have decent scaling, perfect library scrapping, HDMI audio, and advanced options such as custom skins the whole kit is worthless. I can only get that from XBMC, because it lets me (forces me to?) choose which options I want to customize it to my setup.

The gap between XBMC and Boxee is why Boxee exists. If you consider media playback to be a simple task, Boxee was made for you. Boxee is simple by design.
XBMC is not. That is why the forks exist.

I have spent a lot of time with box the Boxee and Plex forks, and I have spent time in their community. Both are attempting to "fix" what each set of developers feels like is XBMC's shortcomings, often in the area of userfriendliness. And they have put forth media player solutions that in ways are easier than XBMC.

But XBMC exists to scratch the itches of its developers, and that is where it shines. In both the Plex and Boxee community sometimes there is pushback for those who demand high-end features, especially if that means diverting resources from user friendliness. In XBMC the developers themselves want that high-end support, so for those in the know you can get features that Plex/Boxee don't have on all platforms. That is a big deal.

XBMC is Debian, the stable tree in the center of its forest. Plex and Boxee and the Ubuntus- new saplings that are growing in their own unique directions. None harm the others as long as information is shared, and each serves their own base. As a high-ender, I am glad XBMC supports me.

Plus XBMC Live outright rocks.

[The-Boxhead]

Telling users to search these forums isn't a sollution to any problems.
Im talking about the casual user who is not a computer geek, they dont even look in these forums.

[ECEC]

You guys are hilarious. I came up with myHTPC and Meedio before getting to XBMC. You want confusing and user unfriendly? Try having to manually create importer strings in order to import ANY media. Try having four or five importers (re: scrapers) to build a complete movie or TV show library. Try attempting to figure out which one of these is broken when it stops working, and combing the forums for updated dll files in order to fix it. Try having to manually define views for each step of the library OUTSIDE of the actual app, with only whatever soca the skin creator happened to provide as a reference. And all of this is done with a separate configuration program, not the actual GUI.

That said, there's still nothing as completely customizable as Meedio in terms of libraries. It's very easy to create completely separate libraries for HD movies, kids movies, porn, etc. it's one big thing that XBMC is still lacking.

XBMC is confusing at first, but once you learn the lingo it gets easier. It also helps to be OCD with your file naming, structure, and ID3 tags, but there a LOT of tools that exist to streamline that process. It's finally gotten to the point that I'll actually install it for completely non-technical people, before Dharma I would just respond with "Sorry, it's too complicated to setup".

The recent additions of the add-on system and such awesome skins bring it to the top of the pile for me.

[vikjon0]

Im talking about the casual user who is not a computer geek, they dont even look in these forums.

Exactly. My point is that the quality and user friendliness is good enough to be aimed to this user group. With the possible exceptions that we need a start-up wizard that unmute sounds etc and that some hidden menu functions in the skins could be too complicated. (e.g. system=> file manager)
The support and documentation however is not good enough for these users.

I have two suggestions. The first I think is already a bit on its way.

1) Targeting specific hardware and create official guides for them.
2) Split the forum and create one forum that is more “support oriented” where you don’t get yelled at because you didn’t read the source code before asking.

[idlehands]

Its really a bummer that you are giving up because it really is a wonderful program.

Here are a few tips to make things easier.

• Bookmark the wikki. Any issues can be reslved by searching thorugh it.
  
• Use the search button in the forums. Its a great way to find the info for your problem.
  
• User Ember Media Manager. It creates the nfo files and generate wonderful fanart for your movies
  

Finally refer to the stickies in the forums.

• http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=38964
  
• http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=68744
  
• http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=30698
  

Ember is not super helpful in a linux/osx household

[poofyhairguy]

Ember is not super helpful in a linux/osx household

Ember runs perfectly in VMware fusion if you are gonna try on OSX.

But yeah, the lack of a QT-based media managing software is one huge hole in the community. To bad I don't know QT.

[Evin]

• Bookmark the wikki. Any issues can be reslved by searching thorugh it.

Sorry, but in my opinion the wiki is almost useless. Countless Informations are simply outdated.

What beginners need are clear instructions, even for simple things. Mounting an internal HDD has nothing to do with XBMC, but it is one of those thing people ran into in the very beginning. And it is very frustrating for Non-Linux-Geeks, if you and your new mediacenter-software can't get it work properly.

Or FTP... Yeah, there is sFTP, but it's slow. Setting up a FTP-Client ist an easy thing, if you know how to.

[vikjon0]

Sorry, but in my opinion the wiki is almost useless.

Yes, I add that to my list. A wiki with standard tasks like mount internal disk, create share etc. It also have to be a separate from the "community wiki" since normal people cant navigate around the 2 years old stuff.

[Evin]

It shouldn't sound harsh, but XBMC grew over years and so the Wiki.

XBMC 10.0 is the perfect time, to give the wiki a fresh start.

[The-Boxhead]

Remember guys that XBMC is developed, maintained and supported only
by nice people giving their devotion and free time to this project.

the wiki needs and overhaul so if anyone feels like it please help out !
We prolly would need a large team to update the wiki

[vikjon0]

Remember guys that XBMC is developed, maintained and supported only
by nice people giving their devotion and free time to this project.

We all understand this concept. Does it block all possible discussion about change? I dont think so. The usual "just submit patch are shut the hell up" bs does not benefit any open source project I promise you.

the wiki needs and overhaul so if anyone feels like it please help out !

It is not that simple...some sort of quality assurance is needed, or at least a minimum of moderation and I still think a separate package is needed for non computer savvy users.

But sure, if there is no intention to targeting these users we can close this discussion.

[IndependentMind]

I would consider this thread closed, but if I could just chime in.

I just came over from MediaPortal (2 days ago?) and am loving the experience in XBMC, I was able to set everything up (99.9%) within the GUI and didn't have to jump to the desktop and run a setup program (ie: MP) but I would agree that some knowledge of how this stuff works is an asset. You can't expect something that is freeware/developed by the community to just work out of the box, especially something as complicated as HTPC software.

As a new user I would agree that the wiki needs some work, but I'm used to plowing through info to get what I need. opening up the wiki and letting "whoever" edit the info would be a mistake, ideally you would want a small team of devoted users whose sole job it would be to edit the wiki over a period of time with an approximate deadline. The same users would be assigned the same task every time changes took place within the software.

Hope I made some sense, keep up the good work, I'm sure I'll have some questions soon

[HenryFord]

I don't see why so many people feel 'attacked' or 'frustrated' by this topic. I'd like to think this is a perfect report to learn from!

You see, we are all humans here.
How would you feel if somebody would tell you that the thing you have been developing for years and will be developing for years to come is complete and utter garbage? It would be offensing to me.

I will never get it into my head: People get the XBMC for nothing, it is completely free and open-source. How could anyone expect "professional" support? I mean the kind of support you can call, yell at and after 20minutes yelling you let him explain the 5 mouse-clicks you have to do.
The Devs. put a huge amount of time into developing this platform, insultig them will lead nowhere.
What is so difficult about asking nice and polite? That is the major problem here.

2) Split the forum and create one forum that is more “support oriented” where you don’t get yelled at because you didn’t read the source code before asking.

We have seen "noob"-threads on other open-source projects before but they will never lead to what you might expect:
The user who does not get the setup of the system most likely either never heard or didn't make any use of the Wiki. At the point where they have to register to a forum and write a post, the bigger part of them already gave up. The few percent who actually make it through the forum registration most likely won't use the search-function in order to get results for their question. They rather post a new thread which is annoying and fills the topics. The devs. will eventually get tired of answering the same question over and over and over and over again, because that is what users do. They do not inform themselves in some FAQ, Tutorials, Documentation or manual - they call the vendor and hold him responsible.
This is why you get yelled at in linux-forums for posting stupid topics, and this is why you get yelled at when you post such stupid topics on these forums. This will never change as the user will never change.
You have to accept that such a support can only be demanded when you get actual payment for it, otherwise you have to live with the fact that it has its shortcomings for this one guy.


Anyways, back to the topic:
A setup-wiz. is probably a good idea. But I do not see the benefits on embedded systems (aka XBMC Live) where everything is preinstalled/configured nor on linux. In general these users are more sophisticated and are used to getting to know some stuff. And if you want to use the xbmc as a centralized server and whatnot you probably would get annoyed by the wizard.

So my idea with dealing with these issues is to give the Windows-Users an extra option in the installer. After completing the installation you can tick "Launch XBMC" in a checkbox before finishing the installation. Why not add another button "Configure Sources" or something similiar which will then open up a little form which will allows you to set file-paths to your Movies/Shows/Whatever-Directory as well as what type the different folders are. The form will then write the entries to the sources-file and also adds the option "Update Library on Start-Up" to the config-file. By the first start of the xbmc it would automaticly scrape things and display the corresponding menu-items.


Edit
You have two choices: Either you understand what you are doing, then you can go ahead and install XBMC-Live. Or, on the other hand, you do not understand what you are doing. I would never ever recommend to anyone without any prior experience in linux to install the Live-System. It is the installation of an Operating System, and if you do not know how to mount drives, then you are at the wrong end. Nobody, no user, can expect at any time to install a operating system is without a hassle, that is ridiculous. If you want to use the live-system you should find a vendor who sells it, ask a friend or get to know the OS better. It is really our choice, but you cannot expect to accomend users who do not have any knowledge at all and want out-of-box experience. That is called service, and that is what a lot of people pay for.

[pecinko]

I would consider this thread closed, but if I could just chime in.

I hope not. I find this kind of feedback very useful.

I just came over from MediaPortal (2 days ago?) and am loving the experience in XBMC, I was able to set everything up (99.9%) within the GUI and didn't have to jump to the desktop and run a setup program (ie: MP)

We all have our preferences but, would you mind explaining?

I'm not saying it doesn't work but IMO, using remote to manage library is just like using mouse to watch it.