[Warner306]

I think something is odd about MPC-HC. Only Nev works for JRiver and it doesn’t update the internal madVR version very often. If I could figure out what was causing the black screen with MPC-HC, I might report a problem. I’m just not sure if I could correct it on my end.

[zxaura1]

Just wanted to report my experiences...

My refresh rate is always at 23Hz and on YCbCr 4:4:4/12bit.
KODI whitelist RR, all 2160p active
3D display mode on Windows display settings ON (also on NCP as a result)

1. After a clean install of Win 10, KODI Beta 2 (tried the latest nightly also), Nvidia drivers 385.28 and MadVr v0.92.14 (settings as the guide here)

- KODI Video Player is unable to play any (non 4K or HDR) movie. Either takes ages to start and then freezes or (on 720p movies usually) starts playing with unwatchable stuttering.
- MPC-BE (default player for everything because of the above) plays instantly and perfectly everything

2. After a clean install of Win 10, KODI Beta 2 (tried the latest nightly also), Nvidia drivers 411.63 and MadVr v0.92.16 (just installation only, not even one setting changed)

- KODI Video Player is unable to play any (non 4K or HDR) movie. Either takes ages to start and then freezes or (on 720p movies usually) starts playing with unwatchable stuttering.
- MPC-BE (default player for everything because of the above) plays instantly and perfectly 3D MVC movies but freezes in first frame when try to play HDR movie. If I disable 3D display mode on Windows display settings, then plays the HDR movies but doesn't play MVC movies in 3D.
  Tried settings on MadVr as the guide here, same as above.
- Sound, I believe, has the same issues as older Nvidia drivers (after 385.28)

Tried MPC-HC also, nothing changes, everything as above.

Also KODI always resizes in the top left corner after closing MPC-BE (dont remember if there is a fix for this).

Not much time to test other combinations at the moment, but I will.

[brazen1]

Well, there's a confirmation that I'm not alone when it comes to this problem stepping forward using KODI v.18 - KODI resizes into the top left corner when closing an external player.  In my case, it also becomes unusable.  In other words, I can't simply fullscreen it again and any attempt to interact with it results in a crash.  Not sure how it reacts for you and would be nice to know?  I also see you too experience audio issues with any driver newer than 385.28 a separate nVidia issue.  Thanks for the report.

I see no problem with your refresh rate always at 23Hz and using YCbCr 4:4:4/12bit but be aware the GUI and anything else 'Windows' prefers 60Hz allowing something to control refresh rate matching (in my case, madVR settings for external player(s) and KODI settings for VideoPlayer).

I really can't remember my results using KODI v.18 VideoPlayer for titles assigned to it (non-HDR, non-3D MVC, etc.) let alone stuttering?  I can't imagine why KODI v.18 VideoPlayer would be so problematic for you?  Something has got to be 'off' in your system as I can't believe the beta could possibly advance with what you describe.  I would definitely raise concerns in other threads.  Take note, none of this code or additions here have ANYTHING to do with how KODI performs.  All the technique applied here is AFTER everything KODI.  KODI is a front end and should perform as usual before anything back end.  Period. 

I quit testing as soon as I realized it doesn't handle external players anymore and reverted back to 17.6.  Since all of my bug reports went unanswered in all of the various threads I've raised attention, (A) nobody cares or (B) no one else can replicate, so until these problems gain more steam, nothing is going to happen for a couple individuals like you and I.  I'd suggest 'spreading the word' when and where you can in other threads.  Understand, what we do here isn't exactly all about KODI 100% and support for these specific problems isn't exactly warranted from a team of volunteers contributing open source code.  I imagine this thread is borderline tolerated depending who and how one looks at it so I don't expect much as far as fixing KODI back to how it once was when it comes to external player additions by few users.

Thanks again for the report.  Hopefully at some point a KODI developer will address it before it's too late.

Btw, if you're a lurker and you follow this thread, it's very simple to replicate our little problem:
You need a 4k display with an external video card.

Set your GPU to 2160p.  With KODI v.18 open, change your GPU to 1080p.  Report your experience and TIA.

[zxaura1]

@brazen1 Thanks for your reply.

In my case, when KODI resizes to the top left after closing MPC-BE, it is working normally, doesn't freezes but of course it is not usable and I have to close it (by pressing the assigned button in my remote for Alt+F4 and Enter) and reopen it again.

We have already discussed my decision to use permanently the 23Hz refresh rate and the GUI behavior compared to 60Hz. In my case, back in late 2016, when I bought my LG TV and using my HTPC with GTX960, when started playing a movie with Video Player it was taking ages to change the refresh rate from 60Hz to 23Hz. Some times more than 30 seconds or so. So this was the only solution for me to start a movie almost instantly. As the time passed and as Nvidia drivers matured I noticed that this gap was minimized but never was acceptable for my taste, so I sticked to that refresh. Also in my TV and in my eyes never noticed any GUI lags, stuttering or anything else.
The very big and great surprise was when I first installed Leia x64 on a clean Windows installation... Before, with KODI 17.6, when starting an HDR movie there was 4,5 or 6 sec for the TV to change to HDR, but with Leia it was just instant! It was jaw dropping for me after all this time and I decided again to stick to 23Hz because I didn't want to lose this behavior.

As for the problems with the Video Player, they were there from the first time I installed Leia. And in every combination of hardware I used [i7 6700K on Z170 chipset and GTX1050Ti or 1060 3GB or 6GB] or [i3 8100 on B360 chipset with same Nvidia cards] or [Ryzen 5 2400G on X470 chipset with integrated graphics or same Nvidia cards). So the chance to be something off in my system is minimal. I will search for this in other threads but for now I set MPC-BE to be the main player for everything and is working perfect. Also this solved for me the audio issues of the past Nvidia drivers and KODI Video Player.

I did the test with KODI and changed refresh from 60Hz to 23Hz and everything with KODI is normal with no problems, except that it insists to steal focus from NCP every few seconds and I had to press the "Windows" key in my keyboard to go back to NCP to apply or accept the new settings. 
BUT, when I made the test with changing resolution from 2160p to 1080p then yes, KODI resizes to top left corner but in my system is still alive and I can exit and close it from within.
I hope that I remember right but I think, a few days ago, once or twice, I left KODI open, with windows ribbons screen saver on as always and switched the TV off. After some time I turned the TV on and then I found KODI resized on the top left corner... :-)

Also I think I reported wrong in my previous post about audio issues with latest 411.63 drivers. I tested again and it seems that everything is working like 385.28. If you can test them and report your opinion it would be great.

Thanks,

Alex

[brazen1]

In my case, when KODI resizes to the top left after closing MPC-BE, it is working normally, doesn't freezes but of course it is not usable and I have to close it (by pressing the assigned button in my remote for Alt+F4 and Enter) and reopen it again.

Working "normally" but "not usable"?  I don't understand?  If you press \ on your keyboard, does KODI resize and work normal? 

I set MPC-BE to be the main player for everything and is working perfect. Also this solved for me the audio issues of the past Nvidia drivers and KODI Video Player.

"[font]Everything perfect"?  Even the KODI resizing?  My audio issues are with nVidia's drivers after 385.28.  Maybe 411.63 fixed?  Haven't tried.  The audio problem affects all players, not just VideoPlayer for me.[/font]

I did the test with KODI and changed refresh from 60Hz to 23Hz and everything with KODI is normal with no problems, except that it insists to steal focus from NCP every few seconds and I had to press the "Windows" key in my keyboard to go back to NCP to apply or accept the new settings. 

My bad.  Change 2160p to 1080p.  Corrected my post above for testers.

BUT, when I made the test with changing resolution from 2160p to 1080p then yes, KODI resizes to top left corner but in my system is still alive and I can exit and close it from within.
I hope that I remember right but I think, a few days ago, once or twice, I left KODI open, with windows ribbons screen saver on as always and switched the TV off. After some time I turned the TV on and then I found KODI resized on the top left corner... :-)

Not having a problem with my system.  Yes, it stays alive.  Just KODI is unresponsive and clicking anything on that tiny window in the top left causes it (KODI) to crash.  After forcing it to close, the system remains fine.

Also I think I reported wrong in my previous post about audio issues with latest 411.63 drivers. I tested again and it seems that everything is working like 385.28. If you can test them and report your opinion it would be great.

As soon as something else warrants another install of GPU drivers and KODI v.18, I will.  I've spent countless months that have turned into years wiping out my working installs to try new drivers and KODI nightlies only to be disappointed and having to revert and reinstall my old working setups again.  After doing it a few hundred times I'll be honest... I'm burned out with the try its.  You do however give me a little hope again by sharing your experiences and at some point I will give them another shot especially as v.18 draws nearer.  I admit, for the time being, I think my observations and shares go unnoticed and lack of participation, especially when I request help from others is vacant, I'm more interested in what others have to write rather than providing anything additional.

Thanks,

Alex

You're welcome but more importantly, THANK YOU.

[zxaura1]

In my case, when KODI resizes to the top left after closing MPC-BE, it is working normally, doesn't freezes but of course it is not usable and I have to close it (by pressing the assigned button in my remote for Alt+F4 and Enter) and reopen it again.

Working "normally" but "not usable"?  I don't understand?  If you press \ on your keyboard, does KODI resize and work normal?  Sorry for not been clear. Yes almost normal. It resizes but not freezes. Menus, buttons and everything else is  working but I can not see the whole GUI as it is resized and focused on the top left quarter (of GUI). But I can navigate in it and close it ether through its power button with the mouse or by pressing Alt+F4 and open the shutdown menu. Then, without seeing it (the menu), I press enter and KODI closes, as it chooses the first option "Exit".

I set MPC-BE to be the main player for everything and is working perfect. Also this solved for me the audio issues of the past Nvidia drivers and KODI Video Player.

"Everything perfect"?  Even the KODI resizing?  My audio issues are with nVidia's drivers after 385.28.  Maybe 411.63 fixed?  Haven't tried.  The audio problem affects all players, not just VideoPlayer for me.Sorry, I meant perfect compared to Video Player, not generally of course. My basic audio issue was that Video Player didn't play any sound on TV speakers, if the movie had HD sound and my receiver was OFF, probably because my TV doesn't support it. But MPC-BE downgrades the sound to PCM and I can live with that if I don't want to switch my receiver on. 

I did the test with KODI and changed refresh from 60Hz to 23Hz and everything with KODI is normal with no problems, except that it insists to steal focus from NCP every few seconds and I had to press the "Windows" key in my keyboard to go back to NCP to apply or accept the new settings. 

My bad.  Change 2160p to 1080p.  Corrected my post above for testers.

BUT, when I made the test with changing resolution from 2160p to 1080p then yes, KODI resizes to top left corner but in my system is still alive and I can exit and close it from within.
I hope that I remember right but I think, a few days ago, once or twice, I left KODI open, with windows ribbons screen saver on as always and switched the TV off. After some time I turned the TV on and then I found KODI resized on the top left corner... :-)

Not having a problem with my system.  Yes, it stays alive.  Just KODI is unresponsive and clicking anything on that tiny window in the top left causes it (KODI) to crash.  After forcing it to close, the system remains fine.Sorry for my English... :-)  I meant KODI stays alive, not my system...

Also I think I reported wrong in my previous post about audio issues with latest 411.63 drivers. I tested again and it seems that everything is working like 385.28. If you can test them and report your opinion it would be great.

As soon as something else warrants another install of GPU drivers and KODI v.18, I will.  I've spent countless months that have turned into years wiping out my working installs to try new drivers and KODI nightlies only to be disappointed and having to revert and reinstall my old working setups again.  After doing it a few hundred times I'll be honest... I'm burned out with the try its.  You do however give me a little hope again by sharing your experiences and at some point I will give them another shot especially as v.18 draws nearer.  I admit, for the time being, I think my observations and shares go unnoticed and lack of participation, especially when I request help from others is vacant, I'm more interested in what others have to write rather than providing anything additional.I understand you completely! It is is the same reason I made MPC-BE my default player because I was tired searching for a solution in Leia's Video Player. Also I convinced myself that it isn't a great problem if KODI resizes, maybe because for 99,99% after watching a movie I always quit KODI.As for the problematic audio of drivers after 385.28, it was present also in Krypton for me. So you can test 411.63 independently of Leia...

Thanks,

Alex

You're welcome but more importantly, THANK YOU.

In my case, when KODI resizes to the top left after closing MPC-BE, it is working normally, doesn't freezes but of course it is not usable and I have to close it (by pressing the assigned button in my remote for Alt+F4 and Enter) and reopen it again.

Working "normally" but "not usable"?  I don't understand?  If you press \ on your keyboard, does KODI resize and work normal? 

Sorry for not been clear. Yes almost normal. It resizes but not freezes. Menus, buttons and everything else is  working but I can not see the whole GUI as it is resized and focused on the top left quarter (of GUI). But I can navigate in it and close it ether through its power button with the mouse or by pressing Alt+F4 and open the shutdown menu. Then, without seeing it (the menu), I press enter and KODI closes, as it chooses the first option "Exit".

I set MPC-BE to be the main player for everything and is working perfect. Also this solved for me the audio issues of the past Nvidia drivers and KODI Video Player.

"Everything perfect"?  Even the KODI resizing?  My audio issues are with nVidia's drivers after 385.28.  Maybe 411.63 fixed?  Haven't tried.  The audio problem affects all players, not just VideoPlayer for me.

Sorry, I meant perfect compared to Video Player, not generally of course. My basic audio issue was that Video Player didn't play any sound on TV speakers, if the movie had HD sound and my receiver was OFF, probably because my TV doesn't support it. But MPC-BE downgrades the sound to PCM and I can live with that if I don't want to switch my receiver on. 

I did the test with KODI and changed refresh from 60Hz to 23Hz and everything with KODI is normal with no problems, except that it insists to steal focus from NCP every few seconds and I had to press the "Windows" key in my keyboard to go back to NCP to apply or accept the new settings. 

My bad.  Change 2160p to 1080p.  Corrected my post above for testers.

BUT, when I made the test with changing resolution from 2160p to 1080p then yes, KODI resizes to top left corner but in my system is still alive and I can exit and close it from within.
I hope that I remember right but I think, a few days ago, once or twice, I left KODI open, with windows ribbons screen saver on as always and switched the TV off. After some time I turned the TV on and then I found KODI resized on the top left corner... :-)

Not having a problem with my system.  Yes, it stays alive.  Just KODI is unresponsive and clicking anything on that tiny window in the top left causes it (KODI) to crash.  After forcing it to close, the system remains fine.

Sorry for my English... :-)  I meant KODI stays alive, not my system...

Also I think I reported wrong in my previous post about audio issues with latest 411.63 drivers. I tested again and it seems that everything is working like 385.28. If you can test them and report your opinion it would be great.

As soon as something else warrants another install of GPU drivers and KODI v.18, I will.  I've spent countless months that have turned into years wiping out my working installs to try new drivers and KODI nightlies only to be disappointed and having to revert and reinstall my old working setups again.  After doing it a few hundred times I'll be honest... I'm burned out with the try its.  You do however give me a little hope again by sharing your experiences and at some point I will give them another shot especially as v.18 draws nearer.  I admit, for the time being, I think my observations and shares go unnoticed and lack of participation, especially when I request help from others is vacant, I'm more interested in what others have to write rather than providing anything additional.

I understand you completely! It is is the same reason I made MPC-BE my default player because I was tired searching for a solution in Leia's Video Player. Also I convinced myself that it isn't a great problem if KODI resizes, maybe because for 99,99% after watching a movie I always quit KODI.As for the problematic audio of drivers after 385.28, it was present also in Krypton for me. So you can test 411.63 independently of Leia...

Thanks,

Alex

You're welcome but more importantly, THANK YOU.
​​​​​​​
You're WELCOME too... :-)

[webmaher]

Well, there's a confirmation that I'm not alone when it comes to this problem stepping forward using KODI v.18 - KODI resizes into the top left corner when closing an external player.  In my case, it also becomes unusable.  

I have the same problem... with AMD RX 460 before never have this error… today i try last drivers but no go.... if I watch 1080 or 720 everything is OK. 
For external players i have Pot player and MPC HC

[zxaura1]

Well, there's a confirmation that I'm not alone when it comes to this problem stepping forward using KODI v.18 - KODI resizes into the top left corner when closing an external player.  In my case, it also becomes unusable.  

I have the same problem... with AMD RX 460 before never have this error… today i try last drivers but no go.... if I watch 1080 or 720 everything is OK. 
For external players i have zoom player and MPC HC 

Just curious... Have you ever managed to play HDR movies with RX 460?

[webmaher]

yes, no problems at all

[brazen1]

Here is a recent example of MPC player differences:

I've been using madVR v0.92.14 with no problems.  I just installed the new madVR v0.92.15 released today carrying over settings from v0.92.14.  MPC-HC starts with a black screen and no OSD.  I assume it is paused which it is and I press play.  My display flashes into HDR mode.  Audio begins and the picture is frozen on a single frame.  If I navigate forward or reverse, the movie begins to play normally.  This isn't exactly good and I certainly don't want to jump through hoops to begin playback when I didn't used to with the older madVR version.  So I start with MPC-BE instead and none of this funny business occurs.  It just starts and plays like it should.  Both MPC players use identical settings.  I've no idea why one works as intended and the other doesn't anymore but it is madVR related.  Perhaps I will fiddle with its settings and find the new culprit but a quick exam revealed nothing so chances are madshi can adjust once I bring it to his attention.

I spent some time this past weekend updating to madVR v0.92.17, another recent release, using the latest nightly offerings from MPC players and LAV Filters I've been using.  I unchecked Rendering/General Settings/delay playback start until render queue is full.  MPC-HC now works as expected without any problems.  Other players continue to perform as usual without being affected. 

I then went on to optimize a number of other changes in madVR settings that I will share once I run them through their paces.  I did quickly preview SDR, HDR, 2D, 3D MVC, iso, and mkv.  You may notice the new display calibration setting for nVidia only but I really don't understand exactly what it does that it didn't do before?  (report BT.2020 to the display).  Does this mean it didn't in the past because the OSD reported it did and my eyes could 'see' it as opposed to BT.709 and others?  I did notice the time it takes between pressing play and actually seeing the video start has increased.  It has been increasing since many builds ago and seems to be taking even longer as builds progress.  The added seconds don't really bother me but though it worth a mention and they are noticeable.

I tested 'tone map HDR using pixel shaders' in many configurations to see if the new algo was 'better' than my panels logic for LED/LCD.  Some swear it supposed to be.  To my eye it wasn't better.  I think those claiming improvement are accustomed to low peak nit values like OLED's and for them perhaps it is an improvement not to mention those that have no HDR capability or PJ's with insufficient peak nits too.  I did read the logic, even in some of the costly panels, wasn't very good compared to madVR's so decide using your own critique.  For me, it was close to equal but produced a softer picture imo, something that doesn't interest me, that could probably be sharpened up but I figured - what's the point?  There certainly was no added brightness or color in relevant objects or anything like that.  Fwiw, I didn't run into any crushed blacks or overblown whites and remained within calibration WTW and BTB.  I remain using passthrough for my particular hardware.

[Warner306]

I don't have any issues with delay playback with MPC-HC. It seems fine. But some files played over the network won't play at all. I can't unpause them or play them from MPC-HC. It only seems to be files I opened at some point in the past. I'm not using MPC-HC, but whatever has happened to the player on my end is different. 

The report BT.2020 option only impacts SDR playback. This would be relevant if you were sending a DCI-P3 input to a display that only accepts BT.2020. A person using a DCI-P3 3D LUT would be most likely to need this option, as DCI-P3 3D LUTs are superior to BT.2020 3D LUTs for current displays.

I did have a long delay at playback start when using an external player after upgrading, but this hasn't continued to happen. It isn't always that slow on subsequent playback.

I can't disagree that HDR -> SDR isn't valuable to everyone. The mismatch in absolute PQ gamma to relative SDR gamma looks, to me, to impact the accuracy of things such as color saturation. I also think the HDR effect is dulled somewhat. If you owned a projector, you may not want to use a PQ curve to watch HDR content because all of the values would be under 100 nits. In this case, HDR -> SDR can make the image significantly brighter than passthrough. There is also the issue of the brightness discrepancy between HDR and SDR. On my display, SDR content looks best with the backlight set to 11/20, while HDR content looks better at 18-20/20. That is a fairly large mismatch in brightness. I've dealt with this by manually adjusting the backlight before playback, which is not very user-friendly.

Pixel shader with a PQ HDR output could be of value, but I'd like to see some screenshots to see exactly what is happening to the image. If the image is darker, more tone mapping could be happening, which could mean more detail at the expense of some loss in brightness. You could potentially have less accurate color, though, because the image may be tone mapped by madVR and again by the display. Like I said, I'd like to see some screenshots first before concluding pixel shader with HDR passthrough is or isn't useful. madshi appears to be tweaking tone mapping for a while, so things will change further. I was hoping for VapourSynth integration in madVR soon because this would open the possibility of using numerous existing VapourSynth shaders.

The only significant issue with consumer displays when it comes to HDR tone mapping is that many manufacturers seem to have been given poor advice on how to tone map when HDR10 content was first released. When he first started out, madshi said one industry expert gave him terrible advice on how to tone map accurately. This is mostly an issue with titles that are very bright: mastered to 4,000 nits. These movies are sometimes more cool in color than they should be because the hue is being accidently shifted by clipping certain values. Not everyone seems to notice or care, but it is a common flaw of some early HDR displays from many manufacturers.

I assume your comment about reading the logic of using this setting was referencing my long post. I didn't consider that someone would want some explanation as to why to use madVR pixel shader over passthrough. I didn't consider that. With that in mind, I will alter that part the next time I update that post.

[brazen1]

I didn't mean MPC-HC exclusively has slowed down.  So do other players.  Perhaps it's on my end although as part of troubleshooting I loaded an old system image prior to the slowness and other problems had manifested.  This occurs in Explorer running solo and in KODI being called.  One would think the call adds even more time.  In my case, older versions of madVR were faster, solo or called.  No idea why subsequent playbacks are quicker than 1st rounds for you.  Perhaps you (and I for that matter) are caching something somewhere we aren't aware of.  Have not looked at resource monitor and perhaps I should.

Thank you for explaining the BT.2020 adjustment.  Will make testing easier.  3 full movies so far.  No problems.  Yippy!

It didn't occur to me there could be dual tone mapping going on...  Do you think turning off HDR to the HDMI display port would eliminate one or is it going to dual tone map whether it's SDR or HDR anyway?

I'm not familiar with VapourSynth?  Should I be?

Ha!  No, my "logic" statement was not referencing your long post but alas your interpretation will lead to a more precise explanation in your thorough and useful bible, I mean guide.  The longer the better imo.  Thank you for all of them btw.  It's my midwestern blood and how it translates on paper.  (Yes, we hang our laundry on clotheslines, eat chicken legs with our fingers, and prefer sunny side up if we don't let em' hatch).  "I did read the logic..." meaning logic as in algorithm.

Thanks for the reply and info.  Always to the point and informative.

[Warner306]

You can't turn of the display's tone mapping. The gamma curve and tone mapping are basically the same thing. I don't know if pixel shader is or isn't useful for tone mapping, unfortunately.

VapourSynth is a way to run scripts that do various image processing. There are scripts to sharpen the image, remove noise, compression artifacts and do a bunch of other things that might not be useful. There aren't a ton of scripts and madVR already has many of these features, but some of the VapourSynth scripts could do a better job than madVR.

[zxaura1]

yes, no problems at all

If it isn’t off topic, can you please tell the programs and settings that you used?

TIA

[brazen1]

I'm now using nVidia driver v.411.70, the latest offering.  After some minor preliminary checks, it appears all is well testing UHD HDR mode in and out, 3D, 2D SDR titles and of course the auto audio switching.  This driver still has the audio problem introduced after v.388.59 however, I substituted the audio driver in the 411.70 installer with the older one from v.388.59 and audio is switching perfectly as it should.  Since enough complaints about the bug have not been made or attended and after waiting a considerable time, I've decided to workaround it the only way I know how.  The 10/12bit setting retention is still faulty after a reboot and continues to revert to 8bit as it has since v.390.65 when it was introduced.  I have not spent any time to see if I can alter something to workaround this.  I prefer to use 8bit anyway since 10/12bit introduces banding for me.  Creating the altered driver installation was slightly tricky for me.  Basically, you will need to rename the install folder during the install.  (at the point the installer has unzipped, scanned your system, and is waiting for the next user input - in which case you rename it at this point and then cancel the install.  This way the folder will not auto delete before you got a chance to edit it.)  Once edited, turn off your internet, msconfig to safe mode boot, run newest DDU, run setup inside your install folder, and make adjustments as usual.  Turn on Windows 3D in display properties.  Done.