2015-01-22, 03:22
It's not reasonable. "powered by...." implies that we approve and want to be associated with it which is not the case.
2015-01-22, 03:51
I'll do the logo change, but to me the site more than satisfies your trademark guidelines once that is done, do you agree? At this point we've killed our search engine rankings by making the titles too long, and that just results in a negative experience for the end user, who will now land on much less legitimate web sites, where their level of confusion is much higher than at ours, with support that isn't comparable.
I'm trying to figure out what else we can put under the logo that would explain that the software "works with kodi" as per your trademark guidelines:
- "Feel free to include language on your site explaining that your application “Works with Kodi”.
http://kodi.wiki/view/Official:Trademark_Policy_FAQ
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Everything from our site is "powered" by Kodi so it made sense at the time to use it, not to mention that it does legitimately give the ability to use it in your trademark policy as it falls under the "language explaining your applications 'Works with Kodi'" heading. it would be nice if you could help us put some other tagline that you feel would sound less "official."
It would be nice if you could help us figure something out that is around the same length as "Powered by Kodi" because I'm not exactly a great graphic designer and I'd like to avoid having to re-design our entire logo around something that I still believe is legitimate use.
Would it be okay to change it to "Works with Kodi" then?
I'm trying to figure out what else we can put under the logo that would explain that the software "works with kodi" as per your trademark guidelines:
- "Feel free to include language on your site explaining that your application “Works with Kodi”.
http://kodi.wiki/view/Official:Trademark_Policy_FAQ
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Everything from our site is "powered" by Kodi so it made sense at the time to use it, not to mention that it does legitimately give the ability to use it in your trademark policy as it falls under the "language explaining your applications 'Works with Kodi'" heading. it would be nice if you could help us put some other tagline that you feel would sound less "official."
It would be nice if you could help us figure something out that is around the same length as "Powered by Kodi" because I'm not exactly a great graphic designer and I'd like to avoid having to re-design our entire logo around something that I still believe is legitimate use.
Would it be okay to change it to "Works with Kodi" then?
2015-01-22, 04:10
Works with Kodi is fine by me. But that is language to go in your heading. Your logo should not include Kodi or XBMC at all. The simplest thing to do is just to cut out those words entirely and send the underline all the way across.
2015-01-22, 04:51
I'm not trying to sound disrespectful, but how are people supposed to know that we have anything to do with Kodi if we don't reference to it at all in the branding?
Our logo is in so many places already, changing it will be an extremely difficult task, and again, I am certain that it falls under your trademark guidelines; it is not my fault that the guidelines allow for that, and I don't necessarily have all the raw files in order to redo all our materials alone, so this is going to be a huge hassle and next to impossible.
I really think that you should also rework your trademark guidelines and trademark FAQ because pretty much everything we've changed so far was covered under the umbrella of your guidelines, aside from the YouTube video naming which was an honest mistake.
Our logo is in so many places already, changing it will be an extremely difficult task, and again, I am certain that it falls under your trademark guidelines; it is not my fault that the guidelines allow for that, and I don't necessarily have all the raw files in order to redo all our materials alone, so this is going to be a huge hassle and next to impossible.
I really think that you should also rework your trademark guidelines and trademark FAQ because pretty much everything we've changed so far was covered under the umbrella of your guidelines, aside from the YouTube video naming which was an honest mistake.
2015-01-22, 05:03
(2015-01-22, 04:51)Eleazar Coding Wrote: I'm not trying to sound disrespectful, but how are people supposed to know that we have anything to do with Kodi if we don't reference to it at all in the branding?
Our logo is in so many places already, changing it will be an extremely difficult task, and again, I am certain that it falls under your trademark guidelines; it is not my fault that the guidelines allow for that, and I don't necessarily have all the raw files in order to redo all our materials alone, so this is going to be a huge hassle and next to impossible.
I really think that you should also rework your trademark guidelines and trademark FAQ because pretty much everything we've changed so far was covered under the umbrella of your guidelines, aside from the YouTube video naming which was an honest mistake.
Stop being stubborn! You are seriously ignoring all we say and no it does not fall under the guidelines AT ALL!! You are just trying to work yourself out of it by trying to bend the rules in a way it is not possible.
2015-01-22, 05:03
I'm not being stubborn, but what you are saying is going to be next to impossible for us to change everywhere, and I don't have the raw files to change it everywhere even if I wanted to. It clearly does fall under your trademark guidelines, it is your guidelines that are flawed, not our logo:
- Feel free to include language on your site explaining that your application “Works with Kodi”
- Use “for Kodi” (or other marks) following the name of your application, provided that the name of your application is unique.
http://kodi.wiki/view/Official:Trademark_Policy_FAQ
You may not: - Use our logo on your cover or in your title. This might be confusing and imply that the book is an official Kodi book.
^ It says nothing about not using the word Kodi in an application name or logo.
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@natethomas Not for nothing, but you'd think that by now you would have started to make such strong public statements against SuperRepo, I can see dozens of violatons clearly on their site, including their site tittle and the use of "Kodi Addons" instead of "Addons for Kodi" everywhere.
I would have assumed by now that you had been in touch with them, and that their lack of changes would have resulted in the same kind of thing you're saying to me. Just lookup any phrase relating to any addon for Kodi, you'll find them, do you think that helps users seeking support?
- Feel free to include language on your site explaining that your application “Works with Kodi”
- Use “for Kodi” (or other marks) following the name of your application, provided that the name of your application is unique.
http://kodi.wiki/view/Official:Trademark_Policy_FAQ
You may not: - Use our logo on your cover or in your title. This might be confusing and imply that the book is an official Kodi book.
^ It says nothing about not using the word Kodi in an application name or logo.
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@natethomas Not for nothing, but you'd think that by now you would have started to make such strong public statements against SuperRepo, I can see dozens of violatons clearly on their site, including their site tittle and the use of "Kodi Addons" instead of "Addons for Kodi" everywhere.
I would have assumed by now that you had been in touch with them, and that their lack of changes would have resulted in the same kind of thing you're saying to me. Just lookup any phrase relating to any addon for Kodi, you'll find them, do you think that helps users seeking support?
2015-01-22, 05:37
I am also in touch with SuperRepo. His logo doesn't include our name. His title actually does have his name in it. His website says things like "Install SuperRepo" which does a pretty good job of indicating that it is its own thing. You'll note I'm pushing you quite a bit less now that you've included your group's title in the title of your website.
To be honest, the two sites, at least a day or so ago, were a really good example of how one site can theoretically be mostly inside the rules, but definitely be confusing. While another site which mostly isn't following the rules still manages to not be confusing at all. At the end of the day, the major difference is one does a good job pushing their own distinct brand, while the other doesn't.
As for the logo thing, you're looking at the section about written works. The appropriate section is from Sec 5, which says, "You may not: Use our marks or derivatives thereof in the name of your application." Pretty clear, as far as I can tell, unless your goal is to misunderstand. With that said, I'm pretty OK with your simply making the effort to change your logo in the major places. You don't need to re-record videos or anything. Your site, plus your social media sites is mostly all I'm looking for. Maybe inside any app too, if necessary.
If you would prefer that we update our trademark policy to also include non-registered corporate names and logos to complement another part of Sec 5 "You may not: Apply for a trademark with a name including any of our marks," I'd be happy to update the policy with wording that you think would be more clear.
To be honest, the two sites, at least a day or so ago, were a really good example of how one site can theoretically be mostly inside the rules, but definitely be confusing. While another site which mostly isn't following the rules still manages to not be confusing at all. At the end of the day, the major difference is one does a good job pushing their own distinct brand, while the other doesn't.
As for the logo thing, you're looking at the section about written works. The appropriate section is from Sec 5, which says, "You may not: Use our marks or derivatives thereof in the name of your application." Pretty clear, as far as I can tell, unless your goal is to misunderstand. With that said, I'm pretty OK with your simply making the effort to change your logo in the major places. You don't need to re-record videos or anything. Your site, plus your social media sites is mostly all I'm looking for. Maybe inside any app too, if necessary.
If you would prefer that we update our trademark policy to also include non-registered corporate names and logos to complement another part of Sec 5 "You may not: Apply for a trademark with a name including any of our marks," I'd be happy to update the policy with wording that you think would be more clear.
2015-01-22, 05:47
What I'm trying to say is that the logo doesn't come under the "site name" line, the logo is more than the site name.
How does "You may not: Use our marks or derivatives thereof in the name of your application." cover the logo whatsoever?
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SuperRepo has clearly broken the trademarks and isn't making anywhere near as much effort as I am to please your team, SuperRepo just updated his site last week, ours has been up for 8 months now without issue.
The point I'm trying to make is that users get a better experience at our site, but by selectively going against me you are pretty much creating an unfair advantage for them in search engine rankings.
I don't see a single post at this forum brining it up, would it be fair to say that I feel that you are unfairly much friendlier with SuperRepo than me, while SuperRepo clearly violates your guidelines?
How does "You may not: Use our marks or derivatives thereof in the name of your application." cover the logo whatsoever?
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SuperRepo has clearly broken the trademarks and isn't making anywhere near as much effort as I am to please your team, SuperRepo just updated his site last week, ours has been up for 8 months now without issue.
The point I'm trying to make is that users get a better experience at our site, but by selectively going against me you are pretty much creating an unfair advantage for them in search engine rankings.
I don't see a single post at this forum brining it up, would it be fair to say that I feel that you are unfairly much friendlier with SuperRepo than me, while SuperRepo clearly violates your guidelines?
2015-01-22, 07:07
I mean, you can say whatever you want. Internally, I'd say it's fairly divided which group we think is causing the most damage. I'm not especially trying to go after anybody with regards to SEO and for the most part I really don't care who has the best SEO. I'm very much labeling that under the header of Not My Problem. I've outlined what changes I want you to make so that I don't think you're violating our trademark. Perhaps you could outline changes you'd like to make that might technically go against our policy, but that you'd like to make to make yourself more competitive.
As for the logo, The logo is your name. If you were ever going to trademark something, the thing you would try to trademark would be your logo. It identifies who you are. It identifies what you do. It is the single most important thing about your organization to an outside observer. And so the fact that it has our name in it seems to suggest that we, in some way, are part of your group. If you feel our trademark policy doesn't include language that would disallow the use of our name in an unrelated organization's logo, that doesn't mean the org should get to use our name in their logo. It means we need to improve the wording of our policy to more clearly make that point. I personally think our policy is pretty clear in this regard, but if you think some language would make this more clear, feel free to suggest it.
As for the logo, The logo is your name. If you were ever going to trademark something, the thing you would try to trademark would be your logo. It identifies who you are. It identifies what you do. It is the single most important thing about your organization to an outside observer. And so the fact that it has our name in it seems to suggest that we, in some way, are part of your group. If you feel our trademark policy doesn't include language that would disallow the use of our name in an unrelated organization's logo, that doesn't mean the org should get to use our name in their logo. It means we need to improve the wording of our policy to more clearly make that point. I personally think our policy is pretty clear in this regard, but if you think some language would make this more clear, feel free to suggest it.
2015-01-22, 07:18
Quote:I'm very much labeling that under the header of Not My Problem.
Who's problem would that be in that case? Considering you've been in touch with the creator of SuperRepo in the recent days, I'm quite insulted to hear you say that it's "not your problem," yet I am.
It gives them a totally unfair SEO advantage over us, and certaintly impacts the community negatively on many different levels; including totally demoralizing our work.
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Quote:As for the logo, The logo is your name.
I don't see how the logo is the site name or application name.
The definition of "site name" or "application name" can in no way be defined as the "logo."
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I'm not trying to purposely make your life difficult, but this is going to be extremely difficult for me to do as I don't have the original raw graphics for anything and can't reach the original designer at the moment.
I'm also very insulted to see you friends with SuperRepo who is a clear offender, but hating on us publicly.
2015-01-22, 07:19
Like hell we are are friends with superrepo.
Also it's a well known fact that I publicly hate SR
Also it's a well known fact that I publicly hate SR
2015-01-22, 07:47
I feel like I'm currently being treated unfairly, and being spoken to in a very demeaning tone; not to mention the fact that several replies have simply been written in a way that made me look stupid, even though the substance of the reasoning was false.
I respect you guys, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to come off as an asshole. Without your work, and the XBMC Foundation's long history of work, none of this would be possible.
I respect you guys, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to come off as an asshole. Without your work, and the XBMC Foundation's long history of work, none of this would be possible.
2015-01-22, 09:45
For me, the only thing I really was bothered about for TVADDONS was the logo saying "powered by Kodi", and I should have poked you guys about that as soon as the new TVADDONS name was chosen and the logo revealed. The fact that so much has been rebranded already makes me far less concerned about various elements on the TVADDONS website, but Nate has a good point in how all of this still adds up.
It really is an unfair situation, but that's only because so much of this involves people's perspectives. It might not have ever been your intention to cause confusion, and the confusion could be simply due to people being stupid, but trademark law doesn't care about what is fair. Trademark only cares about what you have control over and what the end result is.
For example, I'm sure a bunch of people bought XBMC or Kodi related domain names in good faith, without meaning any harm at all, but when they cause confusion then those names must be changed. No refunds for the domain registration will be given, no compensation for any promotional material that has to be pre-printed or pre-promoted. That's probably really unfair from the perspective of those people.
This kind of why people say things like "life's a bitch". Sometimes there's no one but life itself to blame. That's just how it is.
For things like SEO, I hate the very concept of SEO, and believe it damages the web community. Search results, for better or worse, should be based on their actual relevance as much as humanly possible, and not because a few extra key words were in a title here or there.
As for how you are being treated here, I can only say that I think Nate is being reasonable in his comments. You might be picking up on frustration, but that's because there's been a long and frustrating history between us and TVADDONS/HUB. If other people had not already said these things then you could just as easily be hearing them from me. That doesn't mean we think you're an asshole.
In my personal, non-official opinion, I think TVADDONS and Super Repo are farther down on the list of things that are currently an issue, trademark wise. However, if you want to get on the group's good side, then I would listen to what Nate has said.
It really is an unfair situation, but that's only because so much of this involves people's perspectives. It might not have ever been your intention to cause confusion, and the confusion could be simply due to people being stupid, but trademark law doesn't care about what is fair. Trademark only cares about what you have control over and what the end result is.
For example, I'm sure a bunch of people bought XBMC or Kodi related domain names in good faith, without meaning any harm at all, but when they cause confusion then those names must be changed. No refunds for the domain registration will be given, no compensation for any promotional material that has to be pre-printed or pre-promoted. That's probably really unfair from the perspective of those people.
This kind of why people say things like "life's a bitch". Sometimes there's no one but life itself to blame. That's just how it is.
For things like SEO, I hate the very concept of SEO, and believe it damages the web community. Search results, for better or worse, should be based on their actual relevance as much as humanly possible, and not because a few extra key words were in a title here or there.
As for how you are being treated here, I can only say that I think Nate is being reasonable in his comments. You might be picking up on frustration, but that's because there's been a long and frustrating history between us and TVADDONS/HUB. If other people had not already said these things then you could just as easily be hearing them from me. That doesn't mean we think you're an asshole.
In my personal, non-official opinion, I think TVADDONS and Super Repo are farther down on the list of things that are currently an issue, trademark wise. However, if you want to get on the group's good side, then I would listen to what Nate has said.
2015-01-22, 16:28
(2015-01-22, 03:22)Martijn Wrote: It's not reasonable. "powered by...." implies that we approve and want to be associated with it which is not the case.+1 "powered by..." is normally only used for the same purpose as adding "certified by..." or "approved by..." .
They all make it sound as if you been given the seal of approval, which you might want to do for more legitimate products, like for diamond sponsors.
Imagine if a guns manufacturer used Microsoft Windows and started pressing "powered by Microsoft" on their guns, that would get a cease and desist immediately.
To protect the trademark such stickers got to go from products that have not been given an official seal of approval.
