2019-02-10, 20:17
Warner, I have great respect for you and your technical expertise but I feel like I've intruded on sacred ground or something? I'm going to make an attempt to reply and please don't find my words offensive.
You have a user asking if v.18 will handle HDR10. The reply was no. I'm a v.18.1 (and a former v.18 user not that it makes any difference) and I can play it with my antiquated hardware and it looks very good considering. Coming from someone who actually uses it, I thought it helpful and provided settings with a brief description of my environment. Somehow, you've taken my input regarding it nothing more than an attempt to make DSP users jealous with no ammo. And all this time I thought it was ok to compare notes from time to time even if it contradicts another's results. I simply stated an honest testimonial. I understand now this isn't a good idea here. It won't happen again.
You made it a point to state v.18 is too unstable and has problems especially with external players noting matching refresh rates and postage stamping off the top of your head. That you will probably sit on 17.1 for a couple years longer since v.18 offers nothing new or appealing to you. v.18 did have these problems during alpha, beta, and RC stages. Eventually they were addressed along with many other bugs. I know. I reported them because they affected me. I don't have the exact nightly version that addressed them but I can safely say the bugs are no longer present in the final release or the new 18.1 nightlies. I understand this contradicts your findings but these are mine. You also stated v.18 has more bug reports than v.17. I don't find that surprising. Every build for a decade or longer was only working with 1080p SDR at best leading up to a v.17 pinnacle. Along comes 2160p HDR, a pretty huge advancement for the world let alone what v.18 had to adjust to vs what v.17 had to adjust to. Of course dealing with a new higher resolution and HDR is going to create more bugs to work out. v.17 didn't have to deal with anything like this.
I don't get one-off results because I only use one specific skin. Any skin in the official KODI repo works perfectly. I tested all of them searching for an appropriate new skin for myself since my former skin was problematic and was not going to be addressed any longer. Those that aren't in the official repo (I tested about 10 of the most popular), all failed at the time I tested except for silvo's one lone skin that isn't in the repository. Why only it's ok, I don't know and I don't care anymore. So, v.18 isn't broken imo. The skins were and may still be. If v.18 wants to adjust to the broken skins, have at it but common sense tells me it should be the other way around. I posted all of this in detail in another thread at the time, even reaching out with some PM's but it always fell on deaf ears and I assumed no one must be being affected but me. Now that v.18 is here, I see I wasn't alone. My suggestion is always test official releases using Estuary since the devs do.
I'm fully aware v.18 is HDR>SDR. That there are other methods to get passthrough which imo, are better. I sort of stated that in my post along with I prefer other players rather than just the KODI VideoPlayer. I don't fail to see a difference using madVR algorithms vs KODI's. Why would you suggest I do? MadVR vs KODI is not what's in question. KODI abilities, not qualities are. Your OP made that clear. That said, I still stand behind v.18 HDR>SDR looks very, very good considering and that plenty of folks would never notice the difference HDR passed through vs HDR converted to SDR. We as enthusiasts do but casual users... not so much imo. They aren't watching the software. They're just watching the movie.
To gawk at KODI's solution is disrespectful. To pick it apart and compare to madVR challenges casual users into shying away from even using KODI convinced it will be problematic with horrible results or worse... that KODI isn't compatible with UHD HDR at all by telling them "no" because it doesn't passthrough. Many of these folks are just searching for a way to play UHD HDR and they don't have computer science degrees nor the ambition to seek every last ounce of quality and performance. They just want to know if they can watch UHD on their TV somehow and ran across KODI while searching around.
I for one would encourage them and I base that on my own personal findings. Whether the same could be true for everyone I don't know? There's too many variables but if it works for some, it can work for others. The post above this one is a prime example. Because he doesn't get the results I do, I'm a liar, I make no sense, and I'm quite mad. Thanks for that btw. Ask yourself, if v.18 didn't handle UHD HDR decently, do you really think it would have released despite? Plopping a non-delivering unwatchable new build after years of careful development with all platforms considered just for the sake of dishing something out whether it works or not? No, of course not yet you're convinced that's what has occurred. Don't know what to tell you. I tried. All I've managed is to be made to look like an ass. Maybe a couple pics will help back up what I write. These are both v.18.1 VideoPlayer with nothing additional and O/S HDR is turned off as it always is. I think the 2nd screenshot looks pretty decent but if you still find it far from looking ok, then it is what it is. You don't need to tell me madVR rendered players look better again. That's why I use them. Ashlar, I can't guarantee you will get the same results for your friend. I can only provide my own experience and hope it helps and encourages you.
Here is what you describe madjockxbmc:
And here is what I've been discussing:
You have a user asking if v.18 will handle HDR10. The reply was no. I'm a v.18.1 (and a former v.18 user not that it makes any difference) and I can play it with my antiquated hardware and it looks very good considering. Coming from someone who actually uses it, I thought it helpful and provided settings with a brief description of my environment. Somehow, you've taken my input regarding it nothing more than an attempt to make DSP users jealous with no ammo. And all this time I thought it was ok to compare notes from time to time even if it contradicts another's results. I simply stated an honest testimonial. I understand now this isn't a good idea here. It won't happen again.
You made it a point to state v.18 is too unstable and has problems especially with external players noting matching refresh rates and postage stamping off the top of your head. That you will probably sit on 17.1 for a couple years longer since v.18 offers nothing new or appealing to you. v.18 did have these problems during alpha, beta, and RC stages. Eventually they were addressed along with many other bugs. I know. I reported them because they affected me. I don't have the exact nightly version that addressed them but I can safely say the bugs are no longer present in the final release or the new 18.1 nightlies. I understand this contradicts your findings but these are mine. You also stated v.18 has more bug reports than v.17. I don't find that surprising. Every build for a decade or longer was only working with 1080p SDR at best leading up to a v.17 pinnacle. Along comes 2160p HDR, a pretty huge advancement for the world let alone what v.18 had to adjust to vs what v.17 had to adjust to. Of course dealing with a new higher resolution and HDR is going to create more bugs to work out. v.17 didn't have to deal with anything like this.
I don't get one-off results because I only use one specific skin. Any skin in the official KODI repo works perfectly. I tested all of them searching for an appropriate new skin for myself since my former skin was problematic and was not going to be addressed any longer. Those that aren't in the official repo (I tested about 10 of the most popular), all failed at the time I tested except for silvo's one lone skin that isn't in the repository. Why only it's ok, I don't know and I don't care anymore. So, v.18 isn't broken imo. The skins were and may still be. If v.18 wants to adjust to the broken skins, have at it but common sense tells me it should be the other way around. I posted all of this in detail in another thread at the time, even reaching out with some PM's but it always fell on deaf ears and I assumed no one must be being affected but me. Now that v.18 is here, I see I wasn't alone. My suggestion is always test official releases using Estuary since the devs do.
I'm fully aware v.18 is HDR>SDR. That there are other methods to get passthrough which imo, are better. I sort of stated that in my post along with I prefer other players rather than just the KODI VideoPlayer. I don't fail to see a difference using madVR algorithms vs KODI's. Why would you suggest I do? MadVR vs KODI is not what's in question. KODI abilities, not qualities are. Your OP made that clear. That said, I still stand behind v.18 HDR>SDR looks very, very good considering and that plenty of folks would never notice the difference HDR passed through vs HDR converted to SDR. We as enthusiasts do but casual users... not so much imo. They aren't watching the software. They're just watching the movie.
To gawk at KODI's solution is disrespectful. To pick it apart and compare to madVR challenges casual users into shying away from even using KODI convinced it will be problematic with horrible results or worse... that KODI isn't compatible with UHD HDR at all by telling them "no" because it doesn't passthrough. Many of these folks are just searching for a way to play UHD HDR and they don't have computer science degrees nor the ambition to seek every last ounce of quality and performance. They just want to know if they can watch UHD on their TV somehow and ran across KODI while searching around.
I for one would encourage them and I base that on my own personal findings. Whether the same could be true for everyone I don't know? There's too many variables but if it works for some, it can work for others. The post above this one is a prime example. Because he doesn't get the results I do, I'm a liar, I make no sense, and I'm quite mad. Thanks for that btw. Ask yourself, if v.18 didn't handle UHD HDR decently, do you really think it would have released despite? Plopping a non-delivering unwatchable new build after years of careful development with all platforms considered just for the sake of dishing something out whether it works or not? No, of course not yet you're convinced that's what has occurred. Don't know what to tell you. I tried. All I've managed is to be made to look like an ass. Maybe a couple pics will help back up what I write. These are both v.18.1 VideoPlayer with nothing additional and O/S HDR is turned off as it always is. I think the 2nd screenshot looks pretty decent but if you still find it far from looking ok, then it is what it is. You don't need to tell me madVR rendered players look better again. That's why I use them. Ashlar, I can't guarantee you will get the same results for your friend. I can only provide my own experience and hope it helps and encourages you.
Here is what you describe madjockxbmc:
And here is what I've been discussing:
