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Techno Peasant · (This post was last modified: 2016-01-21, 00:27 by Techno Peasant.)

I need some clarification on the use of the "Use limited range" option. My system includes a Core i3 with integrated graphics, with the driver set to:

Quantization Range - Limited
Colorspace/Advanced Color Settings - YCbCr
TV Setting - Limited

Given that I've set the color space to "limited" at the driver level, do I need to set it to "limited" in Kodi? When I do, everything looks washed out. Just to clarify, I'm assuming that setting everything to "limited" is the optimal setting, given that the video content I'll be watching is all "limited." Is this assumption correct?

**PatK** · 2016-01-21, 04:21

The wiki should do the trick Video levels and color space (wiki)

Fairly comprehensive out of the box explanation

Techno Peasant · 2016-01-21, 05:07

Pat, you're the man. Limited, Full, Limited did the trick. Thanks!

Techno Peasant · 2016-01-21, 05:22

Actually, I take that back. :-P

One thing that's not entirely clear is, in what mode does the Netfix app in Windows 10 and other video sources (YouTube, etc) operate? I'm thinking I'll have to create 2 separate graphics card profiles: viewing within Kodi, and another for other video sources. What a PITA.

Techno Peasant · (This post was last modified: 2016-01-21, 05:44 by Techno Peasant.)

To make things worse, it's not clear what the "HDMI Level" settings within my Samsung TV actually mean.

From what I can tell, on the TV HDMI level, "Normal" matches whatever the device (HTPC) sends, and "Low" is the opposite, which seems correct since I get crushed blacks on the desktop if I change the HTPC driver settings to full and the TV to Low. What this seems to indicate, is that I can't actually get "Limited -> Full -> Limited" without changing the TV settings. Argh. I'll have to see if I can program a macro on my Logitech remote to make this less of a pain.

**fritsch** · 2016-01-21, 12:25

Samsung has an Advanced Settings. Black Level: Normal <- full range Black Level: Low <- Limited

Though I must admit the wiki is wrong :-( this topic is not easy at all.

We have three stages were color can get fucked up:

TV, GPU driver, KODI

Video content is Limited Range by default. So the following would be good:

TV: Limited Mode
GPU Driver: Don't touch my colors, let them out as I send them Mode. Most GPU drivers when set to Limited do scale the colors again (!) - so that would do it twice
Kodi: Use Limited Range <- here the hw decoder needs to support getting the original limited levels out, not all do that. For example in Linux VAAPI won't do that before v17 release

So something in practice:

Let's assume you know howto setup your TV and you can choose Limited / Full, but your GPU has either Full mode or an intrusive Limited Mode, which scales down colors. Then the following two are good options for you:
TV: Full
GPU: Full
Kodi: Use Limited Range OFF

This will then all upscale colors to 0..255

Second option for you would be:
TV: Limited
GPU: Intrusive Limited (e.g. the GPU scales 0..255 to 16..235)
Kodi: Use Limited OFF

Here kodi would upscale the colors to full range and your GPU driver would scale them down again. This sucks, but is the only possibility for some.

A third option:

TV: Limited
GPU: Full Range
Kodi: Use Limited On

that way everything that kodi outputs is correct limited range and videos are untouched. But when you switch to your Desktop! The image is much too dark as, as the TV itself will ignore 0..15 and 235..255

So much so clear, right? :-)

**willemd** · 2016-01-21, 22:11

This is horribly difficult for newbies. Especially because not all TVs and GPU drivers react the same with some settings.

**whysoserious** · 2016-01-22, 00:20

(2016-01-21, 22:11)willemd Wrote: This is horribly difficult for newbies. Especially because not all TVs and GPU drivers react the same with some settings.

Truth. After much fiddling around I "think" I have my color range correctly set, in that both the AVS HD 709 Calibration Disc files and the Disney WOW files show correctly, but I'm not sure that I'm not doing excessive color scaling / conversion steps.

TV: Limited - Samsung HDMI Level selection, Low or Normal? Not a big deal, only two choices, try both, see which one looks right?
GPU: Full Range - This is the tricky one for me. What are the settings for Intel HD4400 gpu's to get this?
Kodi: Use Limited On - No problem, simple radio button click in GUI

Or, since it all seems to look right now, I should probably leave well enough alone...

**PatK** · 2016-01-22, 03:06

Quote:Or, since it all seems to look right now, I should probably leave well enough alone...

if it's not broke don't fix it. Let the TV to do all the work.

Warner306 · 2016-01-22, 06:51

Going from a full range output from Kodi to a limited range on the TV can introduce banding due to inaccurate colors, but I haven't noticed it.

huhn · 2016-01-22, 14:09

(2016-01-21, 12:25)fritsch Wrote: A third option:

TV: Limited
GPU: Full Range
Kodi: Use Limited On

that way everything that kodi outputs is correct limited range and videos are untouched. But when you switch to your Desktop! The image is much too dark as, as the TV itself will ignore 0..15 and 235..255

and the videos are never untouched what so ever.

Techno Peasant · (This post was last modified: 2016-01-23, 03:27 by Techno Peasant.)

Thanks for the input everyone.

At the moment, I'm running the following setup:

Kodi - Limited

Driver
Quantization Range - Full
YCbCr - Off
Video Input Range - Application Setting

Samsung TV - Low

With these settings, I'm assuming, I'm running Limited -> Full -> Limited. However, when watching a widescreen movie I notice that the black bars surrounding the video are deep black, but the video itself seems to be washed out. Switching the TV from Normal to Low causes the bars to no longer be washed out, but the video is still not correct. Am I missing something?

I should also note, when I turn Limited off in Kodi, the video still looks washed out.

Techno Peasant · 2016-01-23, 05:39

Nevermind, in all of my driver/Kodi settings changing fury, I changed the Intel Video Input Range setting to Full. Set it back to application and we're good.

ioncype · (This post was last modified: 2018-02-12, 01:02 by ioncype.)

Can anyone please help me to setup Limited-Full-Limited properly? I've read the thread, wiki and googled. I still don't get it...

HTPC: Intel NUC NUC5i3RYH
TV: LG OLED EG910

* Kodi, toggle limited
* GPU? All I can see is that you set the input range (Kodi?) and quantization range to full/limited. I can't see anywhere to set the GPU to full/limited. Or is GPU input/quantization settings what you mean when you say "Set GPU to full"? Both? One of them?
xvYCC toggle?

* TV
"Black level"
High is 0-255 aka Full?
Low is 16 - 235 aka Limited?
Color gamut? standard or wide? Toggle xvYCC and enable wide?

edit: I think I got it now, or?
Limited-Full-Limited
*Kodi: Limited
*GPU
-input range: app/low
-quantization: full
-xvYCC: off
*TV
-Black level: low aka limited
-Color gamut: standard

Yearofthegoat · 2018-02-20, 03:18

Yes, but be aware that there *may* be an issue with certain Intel graphics drivers where it doesn't send Full RGB even when you set it in the driver UI. I have this exact issue with my HD530 integrated GPU, and have raised a ticket with them.

My workaround is to have a second profile (for my TV) in which Kodi is set to use full RGB output. This results in banding, but at least the blacks aren't crushed. When I use my projector, it's all good with Kodi set to Limited.

I think it's to do with the Intel driver reading the TVs EDID and deciding it will not send Full RGB, even though that's what delivers the correct black levels without conversions, and even though I have set it manually in the driver. I tried overriding the EDID but that didn't work - could be me not doing that correctly though.

If they can't (or won't) fix the driver, it will be cheaper and easier for me to disable the Intel graphics and install a Radeon 5450, than replace a perfectly good 42" Panasonic plasma TV. Sorry Intel.