[billythekid13]

Hello, sorry to post a new post here, i hope it's the right place because. 

In general you're probably better off raising support issues on the OSMC forums: https://discourse.osmc.tv/

Going deeper on 3D reading, i have a problem now with the readind of ISO 3D. 

On some ISO (example: Hobbit 2 part 1 or avatar, not in valerian) when i tried to FFward the film it's can take some long minute before working (the image freez for a while (5mn!!) and after then film go further). 

I'm not an OSMC person myself, so my knowledge may well not be up to date, but this sounds like an issue that was reported last Autumn, and which, as far as I'm aware, is still outstanding. Back then it sounded like fixing it was going to be quite complicated: https://discourse.osmc.tv/t/testing-linu...84874/1280

If it is that issue, you could work around it by ripping the film to .MKV format rather than storing it as an ISO.

Thanks you i have posted on the last link you gaved. 

The problem with MKV instead of ISO is that the image are in half size (two image on 1920x1080) and the final quality is lowest than blueray... no ? 

KR

[Sam.Nazarko]

Hello, sorry to post a new post here, i hope it's the right place because. 

In general you're probably better off raising support issues on the OSMC forums: https://discourse.osmc.tv/

Going deeper on 3D reading, i have a problem now with the readind of ISO 3D. 

On some ISO (example: Hobbit 2 part 1 or avatar, not in valerian) when i tried to FFward the film it's can take some long minute before working (the image freez for a while (5mn!!) and after then film go further). 

I'm not an OSMC person myself, so my knowledge may well not be up to date, but this sounds like an issue that was reported last Autumn, and which, as far as I'm aware, is still outstanding. Back then it sounded like fixing it was going to be quite complicated: https://discourse.osmc.tv/t/testing-linu...84874/1280

If it is that issue, you could work around it by ripping the film to .MKV format rather than storing it as an ISO.

Thanks you i have posted on the last link you gaved. 

The problem with MKV instead of ISO is that the image are in half size (two image on 1920x1080) and the final quality is lowest than blueray... no ? 

KR

MKV and ISOs are just containers.
MKV can store full res frame packed 3D

[billythekid13]

In general you're probably better off raising support issues on the OSMC forums: https://discourse.osmc.tv/

I'm not an OSMC person myself, so my knowledge may well not be up to date, but this sounds like an issue that was reported last Autumn, and which, as far as I'm aware, is still outstanding. Back then it sounded like fixing it was going to be quite complicated: https://discourse.osmc.tv/t/testing-linu...84874/1280

If it is that issue, you could work around it by ripping the film to .MKV format rather than storing it as an ISO.

Thanks you i have posted on the last link you gaved. 

The problem with MKV instead of ISO is that the image are in half size (two image on 1920x1080) and the final quality is lowest than blueray... no ? 

KR

MKV and ISOs are just containers.
MKV can store full res frame packed 3D

ok thks for reply, i was think that MKV resolution was less than real frame packed because in 3D they are always in 1920*1080 for 2 images. 
So do i have to look for 3840*1080 MKV to have 2 "real" full size images ? (or if it don't existe, i load iso and i rip it in 3840*1080 ? 

Thanks

[noggin]

Thanks you i have posted on the last link you gaved. 

The problem with MKV instead of ISO is that the image are in half size (two image on 1920x1080) and the final quality is lowest than blueray... no ? 

KR

MKV and ISOs are just containers.
MKV can store full res frame packed 3D

ok thks for reply, i was think that MKV resolution was less than real frame packed because in 3D they are always in 1920*1080 for 2 images. 
So do i have to look for 3840*1080 MKV to have 2 "real" full size images ? (or if it don't existe, i load iso and i rip it in 3840*1080 ? 

Thanks

I think Sam is referring to MKVs that contain MVC encoded 3D - i.e. a 1920x1080 AVC/h.264 stream (that carries one eye feed) alongside an MVC stream which carries the difference data required to produce the other eye stream, which is identical to the way 3D Blu-rays worked.  This isn't referring to SBS or TAB encoding or HSBS or HTAB.

The point being made is that ISO, MKV etc. are just containers or wrappers - and don't define the codecs and specs of the video and audio within them uniquely.

An MKV file can contain h.264 HSBS (1920x1080 containing 2 x 960x1080 eye feeds 2:1 squashed), h.264 SBS/FSBS (3840x1080 containing 2 x 1920x1080 eye feeds in Full HD) h.264/AVC + MVC (1 x 1920x1080 AVC + 1 x MVC additional feed to generate the second eye view) etc.

[billythekid13]

MKV and ISOs are just containers.
MKV can store full res frame packed 3D

ok thks for reply, i was think that MKV resolution was less than real frame packed because in 3D they are always in 1920*1080 for 2 images. 
So do i have to look for 3840*1080 MKV to have 2 "real" full size images ? (or if it don't existe, i load iso and i rip it in 3840*1080 ? 

Thanks

I think Sam is referring to MKVs that contain MVC encoded 3D - i.e. a 1920x1080 AVC/h.264 stream (that carries one eye feed) alongside an MVC stream which carries the difference data required to produce the other eye stream, which is identical to the way 3D Blu-rays worked.  This isn't referring to SBS or TAB encoding or HSBS or HTAB.

The point being made is that ISO, MKV etc. are just containers or wrappers - and don't define the codecs and specs of the video and audio within them uniquely.

An MKV file can contain h.264 HSBS (1920x1080 containing 2 x 960x1080 eye feeds 2:1 squashed), h.264 SBS/FSBS (3840x1080 containing 2 x 1920x1080 eye feeds in Full HD) h.264/AVC + MVC (1 x 1920x1080 AVC + 1 x MVC additional feed to generate the second eye view) etc.

Hye,
Ok undestands many thanks,  
So if ISO are not working correctly on Vero4K+ (saddly, i bought a vero because i read it work for all...)  i have to search SBS in full SBS (or TAB)... OR rip some iso in FSBS

Thanks

[User 309201]

The problem with MKV instead of ISO is that the image are in half size (two image on 1920x1080) and the final quality is lowest than blueray... no ?

No. If it's ripped correctly, the video quality will be absolutely identical. The only difference is that an MKV can only hold a single video (e.g. one movie) while an ISO can hold an entire disc (e.g. movie plus extras). So if you want to store more than just the film, you would need to rip it to several separate MKV files. On the plus side, when converting to MKV you can delete things like disc menus, and audio and subtitle tracks that you don't need - that saves a bit of space.

If you want to try converting to MKV, you could perhaps try downloading utility called MakeMKV - it's designed for ripping straight from disc to MKV files, but it works very nicely with ISOs too.

[billythekid13]

The problem with MKV instead of ISO is that the image are in half size (two image on 1920x1080) and the final quality is lowest than blueray... no ?

No. If it's ripped correctly, the video quality will be absolutely identical. The only difference is that an MKV can only hold a single video (e.g. one movie) while an ISO can hold an entire disc (e.g. movie plus extras). So if you want to store more than just the film, you would need to rip it to several separate MKV files. On the plus side, when converting to MKV you can delete things like disc menus, and audio and subtitle tracks that you don't need - that saves a bit of space.

If you want to try converting to MKV, you could perhaps try downloading utility called MakeMKV - it's designed for ripping straight from disc to MKV files, but it works very nicely with ISOs too.

Thanks Shasarak for you answer and explanation. 

I'll tests makemkv.. 

But i still don't understands why video quality should be the same. In one case we have 960*1080 images (per eyes) in other we have the double size 1920*1080 (per eyes). This should be a major difference in screen. Same if pictures are resized by TV in HD, the source is important ...  no ?

[noggin]

The problem with MKV instead of ISO is that the image are in half size (two image on 1920x1080) and the final quality is lowest than blueray... no ?

No. If it's ripped correctly, the video quality will be absolutely identical. The only difference is that an MKV can only hold a single video (e.g. one movie) while an ISO can hold an entire disc (e.g. movie plus extras). So if you want to store more than just the film, you would need to rip it to several separate MKV files. On the plus side, when converting to MKV you can delete things like disc menus, and audio and subtitle tracks that you don't need - that saves a bit of space.

If you want to try converting to MKV, you could perhaps try downloading utility called MakeMKV - it's designed for ripping straight from disc to MKV files, but it works very nicely with ISOs too.

Thanks Shasarak for you answer and explanation. 

I'll tests makemkv.. 

But i still don't understands why video quality should be the same. In one case we have 960*1080 images (per eyes) in other we have the double size 1920*1080 (per eyes). This should be a major difference in screen. Same if pictures are resized by TV in HD, the source is important ...  no ?

TL;DR If the MKV contains MVC 3D video - it's identical to the video in an ISO - so identical 1920x1080 resolution for each eye feed.  It's only if the MKV contains HSBS or HTAB, and not MVC, that you get 960x1080 or 1920x540 reduced resolution.

Please remember that MKV is just the container for the video - it doesn't define how the video is encoded - that's down to the codecs and resolutions used.

It's possible to store MVC video in both an ISO and an MKV wrapper.  The quality will be the same in both cases as the MKV version will be carrying identical bitstreams to the ISO if it is ripped correctly.  

The MVC video codec is based on a single 1920x1080 h.264/AVC stream for one eye (which is also the stream played in 2D compatibility mode), and a secondary MVC 'difference' stream that allows a second 1920x1080 eye feed to be constructed from the primary h.264 stream (there is a huge amount of redundancy between eye feeds, so this method is a very efficient encoding system).  This is the format used for commercial 3D Blu-ray releases, and is a format that can now be carried in an MKV wrapper.  

HSBS and HTAB are not formats used on ISOs.  For a long time 3D ISO files were converted to MKV as HSBS (2 x 960x1080 feeds next to each other in a 1920x1080 frame) to allow  these files to be replayed on devices that weren't able to play MVC content (MVC replay is still rare), and which weren't able to output frame packed HDMI video (again 3D frame-packed output over HDMI is still rare). HSBS and HTAB are identical to 2D video files - and can thus be played back on any media player capable of playing 2D content.  However, unlike MVC video replayed on a frame-packed output player, you only got reduced resolution as a result.

[User 309201]

But i still don't understands why video quality should be the same. In one case we have 960*1080 images (per eyes) in other we have the double size 1920*1080 (per eyes).

In both cases you have 1920x1080 for each eye. It's exactly the same dual video stream, just packaged in a different container.

[billythekid13]

No. If it's ripped correctly, the video quality will be absolutely identical. The only difference is that an MKV can only hold a single video (e.g. one movie) while an ISO can hold an entire disc (e.g. movie plus extras). So if you want to store more than just the film, you would need to rip it to several separate MKV files. On the plus side, when converting to MKV you can delete things like disc menus, and audio and subtitle tracks that you don't need - that saves a bit of space.

If you want to try converting to MKV, you could perhaps try downloading utility called MakeMKV - it's designed for ripping straight from disc to MKV files, but it works very nicely with ISOs too.

Thanks Shasarak for you answer and explanation. 

I'll tests makemkv.. 

But i still don't understands why video quality should be the same. In one case we have 960*1080 images (per eyes) in other we have the double size 1920*1080 (per eyes). This should be a major difference in screen. Same if pictures are resized by TV in HD, the source is important ...  no ?

TL;DR If the MKV contains MVC 3D video - it's identical to the video in an ISO - so identical 1920x1080 resolution for each eye feed.  It's only if the MKV contains HSBS or HTAB, and not MVC, that you get 960x1080 or 1920x540 reduced resolution.

Please remember that MKV is just the container for the video - it doesn't define how the video is encoded - that's down to the codecs and resolutions used.

It's possible to store MVC video in both an ISO and an MKV wrapper.  The quality will be the same in both cases as the MKV version will be carrying identical bitstreams to the ISO if it is ripped correctly.  

The MVC video codec is based on a single 1920x1080 h.264/AVC stream for one eye (which is also the stream played in 2D compatibility mode), and a secondary MVC 'difference' stream that allows a second 1920x1080 eye feed to be constructed from the primary h.264 stream (there is a huge amount of redundancy between eye feeds, so this method is a very efficient encoding system).  This is the format used for commercial 3D Blu-ray releases, and is a format that can now be carried in an MKV wrapper.  

HSBS and HTAB are not formats used on ISOs.  For a long time 3D ISO files were converted to MKV as HSBS (2 x 960x1080 feeds next to each other in a 1920x1080 frame) to allow  these files to be replayed on devices that weren't able to play MVC content (MVC replay is still rare), and which weren't able to output frame packed HDMI video (again 3D frame-packed output over HDMI is still rare). HSBS and HTAB are identical to 2D video files - and can thus be played back on any media player capable of playing 2D content.  However, unlike MVC video replayed on a frame-packed output player, you only got reduced resolution as a result.

Thanks for that details Noggins, 

So my question is: how to verify in a SBS (or TAB) file that is encoded as MVC (1920*1080 per eyes) ? Mediainfo give 1920*1080 for most of my SBS file. Is that mean that i have only 960*1080 resolutions ? 

Shasarak, some file are in 960*1080 per eyes (to avoid MVC, in HSBS as i understand) so the quality is less. Aren't you agree ?

[User 309201]

So my question is: how to verify in a SBS (or TAB) file that is encoded as MVC (1920*1080 per eyes) ? Mediainfo give 1920*1080 for most of my SBS file. Is that mean that i have only 960*1080 resolutions ? 

Shasarak, some file are in 960*1080 per eyes (to avoid MVC, in HSBS as i understand) so the quality is less. Aren't you agree ?

There certainly are MKV files in the world that are in SBS or TAB format, but if you're starting from an ISO there is no reason why you would choose to make a file like that: not only would the end result be poorer quality, but it would take longer to do, because the video would have to be decoded and then re-encoded again.

Here's an extract from the MediaInfo for one of my 3D mkv files:

Code:

Video
ID : 1
ID in the original source medium : 4113 (0x1011)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : Stereo [email protected] / [email protected]
MultiView_Count : 2
MultiView_Layout : Both Eyes laced in one block (left eye first)
Format settings : CABAC / 3 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames : 3 frames
Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=24
Codec ID : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Duration : 1 h 40 min
Bit rate : 47.1 Mb/s
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.948
Stream size : 33.1 GiB (90%)
Language : English
Default : No
Forced : No
Original source medium : Blu-ray

Note the references to "stereo" and "multiview" - you won't see those in an SBS file.

[billythekid13]

So my question is: how to verify in a SBS (or TAB) file that is encoded as MVC (1920*1080 per eyes) ? Mediainfo give 1920*1080 for most of my SBS file. Is that mean that i have only 960*1080 resolutions ? 

Shasarak, some file are in 960*1080 per eyes (to avoid MVC, in HSBS as i understand) so the quality is less. Aren't you agree ?

There certainly are MKV files in the world that are in SBS or TAB format, but if you're starting from an ISO there is no reason why you would choose to make a file like that: not only would the end result be poorer quality, but it would take longer to do, because the video would have to be decoded and then re-encoded again.

Here's an extract from the MediaInfo for one of my 3D mkv files:

Code:

Video
ID : 1
ID in the original source medium : 4113 (0x1011)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : Stereo [email protected] / [email protected]
MultiView_Count : 2
MultiView_Layout : Both Eyes laced in one block (left eye first)
Format settings : CABAC / 3 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames : 3 frames
Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=24
Codec ID : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Duration : 1 h 40 min
Bit rate : 47.1 Mb/s
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.948
Stream size : 33.1 GiB (90%)
Language : English
Default : No
Forced : No
Original source medium : Blu-ray

Note the references to "stereo" and "multiview" - you won't see those in an SBS file.

Ok merci pour ton explication claire, je n'avais pas vue de détails dans mediainfo. J'ai maintenant comprit (enfin je crois :-)) et peut utiliser mediainfo pour bien vérifier ... 
Sur un de mes films en 3D SBS sur le format j'ai donc 1 seul High@ 4.1  (donc une seule image si je comprend bien). Du coup, si je comprend bien, une image 2D avec deux parties, et  il est quand même en multi view à 2 (stéréo en restitution). Mais là du coup c'est typiquement un half-SBS a deux images de 960*1080 (ailleur dans le titre réel plus bas on le voit noté...). 
Tu es d'accords ? 

ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Profil du format                         : [email protected]
MultiView_Count                          : 2
MultiView_Layout                         : Side by Side (left eye first)
Paramètres du format                     : CABAC / 4 Ref Frames
Paramètres du format, CABAC              : Oui
Paramètres du format, RefFrames          : 4 images
Identifiant du codec                     : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Durée                                    : 2 h 43 min
Débit                                    : 12,0 Mb/s
Largeur                                  : 1 920 pixels
Hauteur                                  : 1 080 pixels
Format à l'écran                         : 16/9
Type d'images/s                          : Constant
Images par seconde                       : 23,976 (24000/1001) Im/s
Espace de couleurs                       : YUV
Sous-échantillonnage de la chrominance   : 4:2:0
Profondeur des couleurs                  : 8 bits
Type de balayage                         : Progressif
Bits/(Pixel*Image)                       : 0.241
Taille du flux                           : 13,7 Gio (90%)
Titre                                    : YYY 3D Half-SBS x264 2-pass 12000 Kbps preset placebo
Bibliothèque utilisée                    : x264 core 152 r2851 ba24899
Paramètres d'encodage                    : ...
Default                                  : Oui
Forced                                   : Non
Gamme de couleurs                        : Limited
Coefficients de la matrice               : BT.709

[User 309201]

The "MultiView_Layout" line is probably the easiest one to check - that makes it clear that your file is in Side by Side format (i.e. both images compressed into a single frame).

But we've gone off on a rather long digression, here. The important point is that if you correctly repackage a 3D ISO into MKV format, that process is lossless - you aren't changing the video data at all, merely the container. So converting to MKV (correctly) will make no difference whatever to the video quality; but it will work around your long-pause-when-searching problem, and also save a little hard drive space too.

[billythekid13]

The "MultiView_Layout" line is probably the easiest one to check - that makes it clear that your file is in Side by Side format (i.e. both images compressed into a single frame).

But we've gone off on a rather long digression, here. The important point is that if you correctly repackage a 3D ISO into MKV format, that process is lossless - you aren't changing the video data at all, merely the container. So converting to MKV (correctly) will make no difference whatever to the video quality; but it will work around your long-pause-when-searching problem, and also save a little hard drive space too.

Yes ok, i rip iso to MKV and effectively it's avoid the long pause when searching.

Just a precision, in the example i give, i have: 

    Profil du format                         : [email protected]
    MultiView_Count                          : 2
    MultiView_Layout                         : Side by Side (left eye first)

So it's side by side in one 2D 1920*1080 image. As far as i understand, it's mean (as there is only one codec in profils) the source image are 960*1080 per image and (potentially) i loss some quality. 

I'm i right ?

[noggin]

The "MultiView_Layout" line is probably the easiest one to check - that makes it clear that your file is in Side by Side format (i.e. both images compressed into a single frame).

But we've gone off on a rather long digression, here. The important point is that if you correctly repackage a 3D ISO into MKV format, that process is lossless - you aren't changing the video data at all, merely the container. So converting to MKV (correctly) will make no difference whatever to the video quality; but it will work around your long-pause-when-searching problem, and also save a little hard drive space too.

Yes ok, i rip iso to MKV and effectively it's avoid the long pause when searching.

Just a precision, in the example i give, i have: 

    Profil du format                         : [email protected]
    MultiView_Count                          : 2
    MultiView_Layout                         : Side by Side (left eye first)

So it's side by side in one 2D 1920*1080 image. As far as i understand, it's mean (as there is only one codec in profils) the source image are 960*1080 per image and (potentially) i loss some quality. 

I'm i right ?

Yes - you are reducing the resolution horizontally by half compared to retaining the 3D MVC encoding which delivers 2 x 1920x1080 eye feeds, not 2 x 960x1080 eye feeds.