2013-08-14, 05:34
Just so long as the button is blue... 
Sorry, clicked into the wrong forum and couldn't help myself.
Sorry, clicked into the wrong forum and couldn't help myself.
2013-09-21, 03:40
A lot of great ideas came out of the skin developers thread, but the one that keeps popping up in my mind is from our own jjd-uk: http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid...pid1490597
Basically, make "expert/advanced" settings a second page, like "skin settings" are, rather than a mode.
At first I wasn't sure about this, because it sounded like it would take extra work, but the more I think about it the more it sounds like the most logical course of action. It would be intuitive, informative, likely easy for multiple skins to adapt to, etc.
So consider this a ping back to the Team. Any thoughts on that method?
Basically, make "expert/advanced" settings a second page, like "skin settings" are, rather than a mode.
At first I wasn't sure about this, because it sounded like it would take extra work, but the more I think about it the more it sounds like the most logical course of action. It would be intuitive, informative, likely easy for multiple skins to adapt to, etc.
So consider this a ping back to the Team. Any thoughts on that method?
2013-09-21, 09:59
i don't like flipping back an forward to different pages to change related settings. it should all be on one page.
2013-09-21, 10:53
(2013-09-21, 09:59)Martijn Wrote: i don't like flipping back an forward to different pages to change related settings. it should all be on one page.
I was a little worried about that too, especially when we have related settings that are both "normal" and "expert" that are of similar groupings, but at the same time it's not like they'd be changed that often. I also think it depends on what the setting is. I can see a "second page" like button working really well for things like passthrough options, because it would be all of those options together in one shot, including "passthrough device". Or like the power saving options for PVR, that strikes me as all one big "expert" grouping.
2013-09-23, 13:36
(2013-09-21, 09:59)Martijn Wrote: i don't like flipping back an forward to different pages to change related settings. it should all be on one page.I'm curious as to where you think you'd have to flip back & forth if done right? I would have thought all related settings would be advanced or not, so would still be grouped together (I'm ignoring how things are split between levels currently as a lot of the guesses made split things that shouldn't have been split).
Hiding settings as default seems to me to be not at all user friendly, although I totally get the need to not confuse the newbie by overwhelming them with long settings lists, thus my idea was seeking the middle ground of having a page of settings that the majority would need for a good XBMC experience, then anything else in a sub-page for the more advanced user.
Most CE companies now do their settings in a similar way, for example on TV's stuff like colour management used to be buried out of view or only accessible via a Service menu, however due to consumer feedback this has generally been brought more to the fore by having a page of the basic settings everyone might potentially use, and then the more advanced stuff like colour management in a sub-page.
2013-09-23, 13:44
i don't want to find my audio device setting on one page and the "advanced" abilities of it on another page
2013-09-23, 14:11
So using a11599's suggestion of audio settings as template.
Something like this would not be acceptable to you:
Audio Out (main page)
Output device:
Number of channels/speakers:
Keep audio device alive:
Advanced Settings (sub-page)
Output stereo to all channels:
Output samplerate:
Adjust output configuration to match audio:
Resampling quality:
Enable bitstreaming:
- Output device:
- Dolby Digital:
- dts:
- Dolby HD
- dts HD
- Output multichannel PCM as Dolby Digital 5.1
Something like this would not be acceptable to you:
Audio Out (main page)
Output device:
Number of channels/speakers:
Keep audio device alive:
Advanced Settings (sub-page)
Output stereo to all channels:
Output samplerate:
Adjust output configuration to match audio:
Resampling quality:
Enable bitstreaming:
- Output device:
- Dolby Digital:
- dts:
- Dolby HD
- dts HD
- Output multichannel PCM as Dolby Digital 5.1
2013-09-24, 10:52
I'd just like to point out that maybe 10%, probably less, of people will know what "Keep audio device alive" means. I certainly don't. I don't mind it being on a less advanced page, but it'll need either much better phrasing or a really REALLY good description to be something that the average user will understand.
2013-09-24, 11:16
That example was more about the principle of having a Advance Settings sub-page instead of using different setting levels to split stuff between standard & advanced. But while we're at it I'm in sort of agreement with you on "Keep audio device alive" and was on the fence about where to put that one in my example.
2013-09-25, 00:40
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Do not e-mail XBMC-Team members directly asking for support. Read/follow the forum rules.
For troubleshooting and bug reporting please make sure you read this first.
2013-09-25, 10:52
That's better, but personally I'm now of the view now that however well implemented having to switch settings levels to expose settings is a bad idea, even with the Setting Level clearly exposed like this I can still see there being tons of "where have my settings gone" posts adding to the support burden.
2013-09-25, 11:37
(2013-09-25, 10:52)jjd-uk Wrote: That's better, but personally I'm now of the view now that however well implemented having to switch settings levels to expose settings is a bad idea, even with the Setting Level clearly exposed like this I can still see there being tons of "where have my settings gone" posts adding to the support burden.
that's just a short pain.
just have an in your face pupop that you can't click away immediately that things have changed
2013-09-25, 11:41
(2013-09-25, 11:37)Martijn Wrote:(2013-09-25, 10:52)jjd-uk Wrote: That's better, but personally I'm now of the view now that however well implemented having to switch settings levels to expose settings is a bad idea, even with the Setting Level clearly exposed like this I can still see there being tons of "where have my settings gone" posts adding to the support burden.
that's just a short pain.
just have an in your face pupop that you can't click away immediately that things have changed
If it's not a change for the better then it's a change we shouldn't include. Telling the user that something has changed or not isn't the issue. The change itself is a step in the wrong direction for usability. We shouldn't think that bad design is passable just because we told the user about it.
2013-09-25, 11:47
I totally disagree with you (and for good reasons)! This is not bad design as you harshly put it.
The settings levels are definitely a good thing. It just needs to be made clear.
Going back to the old way by dumping everything on screen for the average user is a definite no-go!
Things need to work out-of-the-box and ONLY if you need to tweak something you need to change the level to bring up the "advanced settings".
If not hide it.
Things not working by default, that is bad design and should be handled and changed first of all.
First show some substantial changes first like the audio settings rework before messing with every single area. This is the main area of pain and don't go messing with the button before that page is done.
The settings levels are definitely a good thing. It just needs to be made clear.
Going back to the old way by dumping everything on screen for the average user is a definite no-go!
Things need to work out-of-the-box and ONLY if you need to tweak something you need to change the level to bring up the "advanced settings".
If not hide it.
Things not working by default, that is bad design and should be handled and changed first of all.
First show some substantial changes first like the audio settings rework before messing with every single area. This is the main area of pain and don't go messing with the button before that page is done.
2013-09-25, 12:04
With settings descriptions, smarter default values for Gotham, a cleaned up audio settings page, and the fact that we're not adding anything from advancedsettings.xml to the GUI, even if we had everything "dumped" on one page it would still an excellent improvement from v12.
We can still mark settings with levels for a kiosk mode and for "expert" level settings, should they ever be introduced. Or we could use the level to color code the settings, as shown in some of the ideas from the skin developers thread (gives far warning without hiding the setting). The difference between most of our "normal" and "advanced" level settings are a gray line anyways.
Smart sub-grouping certain settings onto their own sub-page, like all the audio passthrough stuff, makes a lot more sense to me than toggling a "mode". This also allows us to add more settings to the GUI without making settings more complicated. Sub pages don't even have to be about how "advanced" they are, but simply as a way to better organize things so users find the settings they want to change. I think it's the perfect way to balance XBMC's ease of use with its highly customizable nature.
We can still mark settings with levels for a kiosk mode and for "expert" level settings, should they ever be introduced. Or we could use the level to color code the settings, as shown in some of the ideas from the skin developers thread (gives far warning without hiding the setting). The difference between most of our "normal" and "advanced" level settings are a gray line anyways.
Smart sub-grouping certain settings onto their own sub-page, like all the audio passthrough stuff, makes a lot more sense to me than toggling a "mode". This also allows us to add more settings to the GUI without making settings more complicated. Sub pages don't even have to be about how "advanced" they are, but simply as a way to better organize things so users find the settings they want to change. I think it's the perfect way to balance XBMC's ease of use with its highly customizable nature.
