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Kodi DSPlayer – DirectShow Player for Windows
(2015-11-27, 00:12)Warner306 Wrote:
(2015-11-26, 23:51)Martijn Wrote:
(2015-11-26, 23:46)XTrojan Wrote: Seconded, just because other platforms are worse, doesn't mean that they all have to be.

And that simple statement just destroys everything! Guess you didn't even comprehend what has been said here. You just kicked all the work every dev has ever put into a platform into the ground and spit on it.

Go shame yourself Angry

I take it you are the one Windows developer? Poor you. Your fellow developers should be ashamed.

How can you be such offensive to us? I really don't understand. You have 1.7k posts, that means you spend a lot of time on this ground that only exists because Team Kodi makes this happen.
I am glad that there are many other threads and users with a much better attitude than in this thread here. If all was like this here, I would quit as well.
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But why, FernetMenta? DSPlayer allows for madVR use. MadVR is objectively a better render. It's not a matter of personal opinion. In the devs thread you asked for reasons why DSPlayer is better. It pretty much boils down to madVR and SVP (frame interpolation, personally I don't care for it). Then there's Reclock which I personally prefer as it's more transparent about what happens behind the scenes.

Aracnoz expressed clear willingness to work within the binary addons constraints. Your reply was scathing to be generous. There's no point in trying to turning this into something else. There was a developer willing to work, he was shown the exit door, he took it. Go re-read the devs thread and tell me exactly where aracnoz was met with positive comments and suggestions.
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I as just a regular user/enthusiast can completely understand the team kodi position opposing a "merging" of DSPlayer only for windows. I love kodi because it does the same thing on all platforms and it allows for a fully open source stack. I personally do not like windows at all. I have my technical reasons but it all comes down to Linux/Android/BSD being my personal preference. So for me Kodi swallowing DSPlayer would be a sad thing. There are not many devs running the project. Having them split between Windoze and RestOfTheUniverse makes zero sense. Instead they are working on a new, flexible system that might bring all the video lovelyness to all of the platforms. One codebase to manage, not two. Super cool.

For outsiders, it can look as if there's hundreds of well paid engineers on a space ship writing the code. In reality the few who work on Kodi are just enormously talented people working in their spare time. It looks like a regular "paid for" product because of the quality and efficiency of their work.

The devs probably work a full day, get home, do all the other stuff and then, instead of sitting down and watching TV with Kodi they are doing a second work shift at a highly skilled tech job for zero pay. It's the textbook definition of a "labor of love". I see why this can quickly become an emotional thing.

Anyway, thanks team Kodi. I can't recount how much fun I have with Kodi and I'm sure there is more coming. Just bought the new hoodie :-)
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At the risk of being repetitive, aracnoz had clearly expressed his willingness to take the binary addon route. Instead I keep on reading about "merging with Kodi". Go figure...
For troubleshooting and bug reporting please make sure you read this first.
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(2015-11-27, 00:53)FernetMenta Wrote:
(2015-11-27, 00:12)Warner306 Wrote:
(2015-11-26, 23:51)Martijn Wrote: And that simple statement just destroys everything! Guess you didn't even comprehend what has been said here. You just kicked all the work every dev has ever put into a platform into the ground and spit on it.

Go shame yourself Angry

I take it you are the one Windows developer? Poor you. Your fellow developers should be ashamed.

How can you be such offensive to us? I really don't understand. You have 1.7k posts, that means you spend a lot of time on this ground that only exists because Team Kodi makes this happen.
I am glad that there are many other threads and users with a much better attitude than in this thread here. If all was like this here, I would quit as well.

That was not meant to be offensive. I was making a joke that it is unfair to give that job to one guy. I appreciate all that Kodi has to offer.

Quit throwing eggs, you guys; you aren't helping anything.
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there is one thing you all should not forget.

this DSplayer version will mostly work for a long time.
i don't see a reason a new lavfilter/madVR version will break it.

so new features like VP9 hardware decoding which will come sooner or later should work totally fine with the current version.
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(2015-11-27, 03:23)ashlar Wrote: At the risk of being repetitive, aracnoz had clearly expressed his willingness to take the binary addon route. Instead I keep on reading about "merging with Kodi". Go figure...

I never refused to work with whoever asked for that. I just said that the currect state of dsplayer from an architectural point of view is a big mess and there is no way integrating this in that state. This is the facts. Nothing offensive nor personal in my words. I am sorry, I can not hold the hand of any developer who has an issue with communication. I don't understand why he did not introduce himself to the team and elaborated on his project like other do. I am sorry but I won't start crying. Kodi will continue.
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WOW! all this hate towards the Team Kodi members, who without them you would not even have the base that you run DSplayer on!

Like ariendj, what I love about Kodi is that it does exactly the same on all platforms (some differences) but the way to operate it is exactly the same, and with 10 different devices on different platforms running kodi for family and friends, it makes it heaven for me to help them fix things.

@ashlar: What I understood from the Devs posts, is before coming and asking to merge a huge spaghetti code with lots of bugs, first help clean the core, fix it, contribute to it, then come with your big shiny ideas to be discussed. That is what they mean by there was no contribution from DSplayer Dev, he made his work and put huge effort on it and tried to merge it, nothing to do with Kodi core. Also since Binary Addons are not ready yet, isn´t it a little early to discuss the addition of DSplayer, especially since DSplayer has to go under a huge rework to be added?

One last thing, Thank you to all Team Kodi members for making this possible!
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(2015-11-27, 08:58)FernetMenta Wrote:
(2015-11-27, 03:23)ashlar Wrote: At the risk of being repetitive, aracnoz had clearly expressed his willingness to take the binary addon route. Instead I keep on reading about "merging with Kodi". Go figure...

I never refused to work with whoever asked for that. I just said that the currect state of dsplayer from an architectural point of view is a big mess and there is no way integrating this in that state. This is the facts. Nothing offensive nor personal in my words. I am sorry, I can not hold the hand of any developer who has an issue with communication. I don't understand why he did not introduce himself to the team and elaborated on his project like other do. I am sorry but I won't start crying. Kodi will continue.
I'm sorry but reading about aracnoz having an issue with communication is appalling. You directly quoted him when he said that *if* Kodi would allow binary videoplayers addons in the future he will look into it, just to tell him "I haven't seen you contributing a single line of code to our code base." And so what? He was doing something else. He was working on a fork. What relation needed to be stressed between that and the fact that he was interested in the videoplayers addons strategy you defined as "the right strategy" two posts before?

He has a communication problem and yet it's you that found something so nice to say about him like "Sorry about this. On the other hand I did't even know that he existed 2 weeks ago."
Clearly that's the way to go for somebody without a communication problem.

And then there's the whole fact of you not knowing anything about DSPlayer, which is a development allowing the use of the most advanced video renderer available in Kodi. Another dev checking in just to state that "it might be just the best Windows Kodi fork ever", emphasis his. This in a thread devoted to discussing video playback development is... I don't know... would it have been right to claim "the best Kodi fork ever for video reproduction quality"? Would that have been ok?

All this doesn't matter a lot, I can live with Kodi without DSPlayer, what really upsets me is the bad manners displayed and the gall of claiming that others have communication problems.

@melhemk, aracnoz was just trying to understand how to better approach. He's developing a fork, he was, he asks how to better fit in this new Video Player development. He pretty much does *not* get a single constructive answer. And that was a devs only thread, where else should he have asked? Did you read him anywhere claiming "this has to happen now or I'll leave"?

He very clearly wrote: "when i saw this thread the first time I thought that the final goal was the possibility to have differents videoplayer as binary addons. If one day Kodi will reach this result i will ready to move DSPlayer in that direction".

He wasn't even the first introducing the DSPlayer discussion in that thread. That was madshi. Who wrote "Could this be a good opportunity to maybe join efforts with the DSPlayer dev(s)?"
And then everything rapidly fell apart. With one dev stating that you need to install "third party LAV filters packages", which is false and aracnoz just pointed that out. Does MPC-HC need to install third party LAV filters packages? No. Does it use LAV filters? It does.

There's no hate for Team Kodi on my part, there's just a big let down in seeing how a nice guy that was willing to work with them was shot down for no logical reason. Apart, maybe, for a general dislike for the Windows platform, that I'm sorry to say now and then keeps resurfacing.
I put my money where my mouth is in the past, as far as love for the Kodi platform is concerned. But here we are talking about specific actions and reactions, not the overall project.
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Just to be honest. I as one developer who supports windows platform (yes, it's me) I don't want to support a huge "black box" like DSPlayer is for me. I'm alone and have no time enough for core Kodi not even speaking about DSPlayer. The main problem of DSPlayer for me as windows developer: there is no a possibility to use madVR renderer without DirectShow filters. If there is a some way to use madVR (through COM) just as another renderer like DXVA, Pixel Shaders or Software, I would be glad to try to implement an integration. But current state of DSPlayer in not acceptable not only for me but for all devs in the team whether you like it or not. Also I didn't like what madVR isn't open source project and I'm realy don't like to working with closed source projects.
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This is going nowhere and it seems to me that this bickering over what are really trival things is making the situation worse and not better.

At the end of the day it is not the job of the main tree to be purposely moved into a position so it can swallow a fork simply because it offers better quality over another platform, that is not the best way to move a project forward. It seems to me at least (again taking the personal communication issues out of the way) that both FernetMenta and aracnoz do actually see the same end goal, the only difference is in how to get there. It is really unfortunate what has happened. From both a kodi+dsplayer prospective and moving the entire kodi project into the future.

On the one side aracnoz sees it from a DSplayer intergration exercise and he has offered help to do that. On the other side FernetMenta and other kodi devs have to weigh up the best way to allow videoplayer modules that will also be of benefit to all other platforms and not just windows.

If a video player spec (which can be a different revision over platform) is the way the main kodi dev want to move the project forward then I would say aracnoz can offer a really good insight on that from a windows prospective which can be used to help with other platforms also. What he says should be listened to. At the same time though aracnoz would have to accept ideas that are good from a windows dsplayer standpoint may not be when doing the same for other platforms. A lot on planning and cleanup would be needed and it would be better if aracnoz is a part of that fully.

Idealy the best way this would happen would be to first guide the main tree in steps where it could potentially allow DSplayer as the video player spec for windows. This is not just about windows I stress. These steps would need to be taking other platforms into account equally and not just be from a DSplayer prospective. For this to happen it would have been better if aracnoz stopped work on the dsplayer tree and lent his expertize to the main dev pool. To stress again, he did indicate he was open to helping.

Then once that is complete he could then work the DSplayer module into a place where it met the standard he helped set up in the main tree.

I sincerely ask both FernetMenta and aracnoz if you could privately try and reach out to each other. I really do believe you both have a lot more in common on where you see kodi going than you may think.
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Quote:This is going nowhere and it seems to me that this bickering over what are really trival things is making the situation worse and not better.

not sure anymore. the kodi DEVS are joining this thread which is a very good thing.

it is now possible to see there issues with the DSplayer and wrong assumption like powerful hardware is needed to run this software which is not true.

of cause this "you are at fault stuff" is kind of pointless now.
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I'm very disappointed with this project going back to dormant state because it was a big draw for the Windows user. DVDPlayer's IQ is much inferior to players from competing media center software and DSPlayer helped tip the scale back in Kodi's favor. In fact the only reason I added a dedicated GPU to my HTPC was DSPlayer and now I'm feeling like I've wasted money.

I'm also disappointed because after posts by core devs here it seems Windows users are "second-class" users to them. It's surely difficult to merge forked code back into the main branch, especially when it's so extensive (a whole new player which shares little with DVDPlayer other than interface), but the devs seemed not to have even considered the possibility, after all Windows users are minority so if something can be at its best on Windows it doesn't really matter, right?

I'd expect this kind of behavior from big corporation (in fact I'm used to it, as PC gamer) but from open-source community it's definitely not encouraging and gives the whole project a bad reputation. If Windows matters less to you, then either be honest about it or simply drop support of it. I'm already expecting the broken support of Xbox One controller on Windows 10 to last longer than I expected because I already knew users of Xbox One controllers were a minority but now I learned Windows itself isn't a priority in the Kodi project, much less Windows 10 which has been out for only four months.

Why are Windows users more vocal about bugs they experience? Because they know they're being neglected, after all their problems take longer to fix as it's not the "priority". Wink

If things change in the future I'll come back to Kodi, for now I guess I'll look elsewhere.
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(2015-11-27, 12:39)afedchin Wrote: Just to be honest. I as one developer who supports windows platform (yes, it's me) I don't want to support a huge "black box" like DSPlayer is for me. I'm alone and have no time enough for core Kodi not even speaking about DSPlayer. The main problem of DSPlayer for me as windows developer: there is no a possibility to use madVR renderer without DirectShow filters. If there is a some way to use madVR (through COM) just as another renderer like DXVA, Pixel Shaders or Software, I would be glad to try to implement an integration. But current state of DSPlayer in not acceptable not only for me but for all devs in the team whether you like it or not. Also I didn't like what madVR isn't open source project and I'm realy don't like to working with closed source projects.
I understand what you are saying. And, if it could be a positive indication, aracnoz reinstated support for EVR specifically because madVR was not open source and could not be easily distributed together with an open source work (that's how I understood it, at least). In any case... he explicitly said he was willing to go the way of addons. In that case you wouldn't have had to support any kind of black box, would you have?

And thanks, many, many thanks for keeping the Windows platform in working (and developing) conditions. Thank you.

And to everybody, please (and sorry for bold type but I feel this needs to be clear beyond doubts):

aracnoz stated that he was willing to work toward making DSPlayer an addon, once (and if) the Video Player work by FernetMenta allowed for it.

(2015-11-18, 02:36)aracnoz Wrote: anway when i saw this thread the first time I thought that the final goal was the possibility to have differents videoplayer as binary addons

if one day Kodi will reach this result i will ready to move DSPlayer in that direction
Let's stop the discussion from facing a situation that was never there. aracnoz never demanded to be included in Kodi mainline to keep on working. He asked about it. And when it was clear that that was not doable replied with the above (emphasis mine).
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Guys maybe we can port MPDN to kodi by using its api? Is this possible with similar feature of dsplayer? The author is willing to improve its api if needed
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