[wrxtasy]

Split from the nVIDIA Shield Thread



Some background reading:
Motion Interpolation and the video Soap Opera Effect
Various TV Manufacturers Motion Interpolation implementations

A bit of background....I stopped using a v1 Chromecast over a year ago as 23.976fps Netflix content, displayed at 1080p60Hz had very bad 3:2 pulldown video judder. Anyway I powered it up yesterday and it did two Firmware updates. Now 23.976fps Netflix content, or any other 24p content displays at 1080p60Hz with no video judder and I'm not seeing the dreaded Soap Opera effect from my TV's aggressive Motion Interpolation algorithm either.

What does this have to do with Kodi - well new AMLogic Marshmallow Firmware that I've played around with over the last month on both the Xiaomi Mi Box and the test Firmware on the Hub achieve the same results as the Chromecast.
In fact it looks like a number of video player Manufacturers have implemented new Motion Interpolation Algorithms that visually appear to be superior when outputting 23.976fps video content at 1080p60Hz compared to what consumer grade TV's can achieve.

[wesk05]

This is how I understand refresh rate switching on WeTek devices: there is one provided by Amlogic (hdmi self-adaption level1/2) that works for non-DRM video and a second one baked in by Christian Troy that operates on amports. This is the one that identifies the fps for DRM protected videos such as Netflix streams. I would say that both of them are non-standard implementations.

@wesk
every decoder in amports (that is where every HW decoded video is processed) has a reference to the duration of the frame and can be used for getting the fps value of the movie. This will not work with VFR HEVC files (as Kodi does not) because you end up with "non standard" durations so you can't estimate what to switch if a frame is, let's say, 24.08546754135 fps.

[wrxtasy]

Ok how do we explain the nice smooth video playback for AML Marshmallow for a 23.976fps 1080/2160p 60Hz combo operating at a system level.
This is what is seen on the Mi Box and test Marshmallow Hub Firmware.

Remember that the Mi Box is an officially licensed Google Android TV device. I doubt its using non standard "hacks"

There simply is no 3:2 pulldown judder that I can see visually during video playback in any App. DRM ones included.

[wesk05]

Ok how do we explain the nice smooth video playback for AML Marshmallow for a 23.976fps 1080/2160p 60Hz combo operating at a system level.
This is what is seen on the Mi Box and test Marshmallow Hub Firmware.

Remember that the Mi Box is an officially licensed Google Android TV device. I doubt its using non standard "hacks"

There simply is no 3:2 pulldown judder that I can see visually during video playback in any App. DRM ones included.

Amlogic may have a better 3:2 pulldown algorithm on Marshamallow? I don't know. Shield's 3:2 pulldown is also very good. There isn't any noticeable judder. MrMC has said that it is "butter smooth" on the Apple TV.

[wrxtasy]

Yes that sounds logical as we get better VPU's in modern SoC's with refined Kernel driver and algorithm coding.

Butter smooth 23.976fps video playback on an ATV4 hey. Never thought I would see that on an Apple product.

[couto27]

Yes that sounds logical as we get better VPU's in modern SoC's with refined Kernel driver and algorithm coding.

Butter smooth 23.976fps video playback on an ATV4 hey. Never thought I would see that on an Apple product.

I had all previous generations of ATV1, 2 & 3 and they never support 24hz output, and the 3:2 pulldown was always very good.
The latest ATV4 also dont support 24hz according to apple forums.

[Soli]

23.976 over 60hz + "minimal tv processing" sounds like a shitty day in hell
C'mon people, stop spreading lies. If you want your movies smooth as soap, then by all means. Just don't confuse this smooth with "cinema smooth".

[sandogo1]

[quote='Soli' pid='2455024' dateline='1478932848']
23.976 over 60hz + "minimal tv processing" sounds like a shitty day in hell
C'mon people, stop spreading lies. If you want your movies smooth as soap, then by all means. Just don't confuse this smooth with "cinema smooth".



So what ver do you recommend?

[couto27]

23.976 over 60hz + "minimal tv processing" sounds like a shitty day in hell
C'mon people, stop spreading lies. If you want your movies smooth as soap, then by all means. Just don't confuse this smooth with "cinema smooth".

Not really some Displays can do a very good job removing the judder,

Samsung: Automatic most of the time, but inconsistent – sometimes 24 fps video will have judder via 60p and 60i. For 480i and 1080i video, go to Menu > Picture > Picture Options and set ‘Film Mode’ to ‘On.’
On some TVs, setting 'Auto Motion Plus' to 'Custom' with both sliders to 0 will fix it without adding any soap opera effect.
Sony: Go to Menu > Picture and Display > Picture Adjustments. Set ‘MotionFlow’ to ‘TrueCinema,’ and set ‘Cinemotion’ to ‘High.’
Vizio: Go to Menu > Picture > More Picture and set ‘Film Mode’ to ‘Auto.’
LG: Go to Menu > Picture > Picture Mode Settings and set ‘Real Cinema’ to ‘On.’

This website rtings has a test that you can donwload and test with your apple TV + your TV


Somes TVs pass the Judder 24 via 60hz



The Test

[Soli]

There are 2 ways to process 24p over 60p. Change the refreshrate to 72hz, the old Kuros did this with 720/1080i (but not 1080p). The other way is 120hz, and since all the upscale displays are 120hz native, that's what they'll do. But the test doesn't show if you have 120hz as in a multiple of 23.976 or 24. You can probably get away with a multiple of 24hz and some mild frame interpolation. For me, all frame interpolation sucks but ymmv. And it doesn't show if the dreaded frame interpolation is activated or not. So it's at best an indicator of "something".

Samsung: Automatic most of the time, but inconsistent – sometimes 24 fps video will have judder via 60p and 60i. For 480i and 1080i video, go to Menu > Picture > Picture Options and set ‘Film Mode’ to ‘On.’
On some TVs, setting 'Auto Motion Plus' to 'Custom' with both sliders to 0 will fix it without adding any soap opera effect.
Sony: Go to Menu > Picture and Display > Picture Adjustments. Set ‘MotionFlow’ to ‘TrueCinema,’ and set ‘Cinemotion’ to ‘High.’
Vizio: Go to Menu > Picture > More Picture and set ‘Film Mode’ to ‘Auto.’
LG: Go to Menu > Picture > Picture Mode Settings and set ‘Real Cinema’ to ‘On.’

C'mon, If you believe this, then you might as well believe in Santa.

[wesk05]

rtings test tell you whether your display can do 3:2 pulldown detection. Many of the newer TVs with 120Hz native refresh rate can detect 3:2 pulldown in the video, remove it and display it with 5:5 pulldown. TVs that cannot do 5:5 pulldown may do motion interpolated 3:2 pulldown to remove judder associated with the pulldown. Some of the newer SoCs used in Android boxes are capable of doing motion interpolated 3:2 pulldown on 24p content. This is why their 60Hz output have minimal judder (for many people).

[wrxtasy]

Thanks wesk05.
All I care about is minimal judder without the dreaded overly processed Soap Opera effect. Which is exactly what I'm seeing with Marshmallow on AMLogic Android S905's. This is operating at at kernel driver level, irrespective of the Apps used.

Kodi Purists as seen above will hate this sort of thing, but for the majority of Android Kodi users they simply won't notice or even care so long as it works.

[Soli]

Some of the newer SoCs used in Android boxes are capable of doing motion interpolated 3:2 pulldown on 24p content. This is why their 60Hz output have minimal judder (for many people).

I'd like some verification on this. (not being argumentative, I'm curious)

I read this as some form of frame interpolation. Question is, would the TV's capable of 24p over 60p (in the event that they do this properly in the first place) recognise this as 3:2 pulldown and reformat it as 5:5? Probably not...? Instead you'll get 23.976fps->layer of soap->60fps->another layer of soap > 120/240hz (or whatever number they advertise nowadays).

In the eyes(!) of the regular consumer, it probably has benefits to have better pulldown algorithms, so I'm not really negative towards these things (but we have to call it for what it is). Espescially since with with LCDs and other sample-and-hold technologies you have to choose your poison between blur/judder/soapety soap

But personally though, I don't buy it. (both meanings of the word).

[wesk05]

I'd like some verification on this. (not being argumentative, I'm curious)

I read this as some form of frame interpolation. Question is, would the TV's capable of 24p over 60p (in the event that they do this properly in the first place) recognise this as 3:2 pulldown and reformat it as 5:5? Probably not...? Instead you'll get 23.976fps->layer of soap->60fps->another layer of soap > 120/240hz (or whatever number they advertise nowadays).

In the eyes(!) of the regular consumer, it probably has benefits to have better pulldown algorithms, so I'm not really negative towards these things (but we have to call it for what it is). Espescially since with with LCDs and other sample-and-hold technologies you have to choose your poison between blur/judder/soapety soap

But personally though, I don't buy it. (both meanings of the word).

If you are curious, all you need to do is get a nVIDIA Shield or a Mi Box and you can verify it with your own eyes As for the algorithms, there are a few patents for it, the one from Zoran (now defunct) has been used by many manufacturers.

https://www.google.com/patents/US20090190030
https://www.google.com/patents/US20040193289
http://google.com/patents/US8917354

Yes, these algorithms may end up producing SOE, but the sales number for Apple TV, Chromecast, Amazon FireTV, Roku suggests that the vast majority of people don't seem to mind this SOE.

[Soli]

If you are curious, all you need to do is get a nVIDIA Shield or a Mi Box and you can verify it with your own eyes As for the algorithms, there are a few patents for it, the one from Zoran (now defunct) has been used by many manufacturers.

https://www.google.com/patents/US20090190030
https://www.google.com/patents/US20040193289
http://google.com/patents/US8917354

Yes, these algorithms may end up producing SOE, but the sales number for Apple TV, Chromecast, Amazon FireTV, Roku suggests that the vast majority of people don't seem to mind this SOE.

I'll pass.. But technically, in a strict sense, we're not talking about 3:2 pulldown, but frame interpolation/processing? I know they do this with specialized equipment in broadcasting (59.94i to 50i without any detectable judder, although I do detect a certain amount of soapiness sometimes depending on the material).

With app-based OS'es with tight gpu integration this is certainly a good feature for most people, but it's probably not a good idea (or maybe even possible) for general desktop usage. Movies on my Pioneer plasma at 23,976 3x multiplier is still highly preferred, but I use an ATV3 for netflix and it works fine @ 60hz.