[jogal]

Is HDR now included as standard in the Kodi 19 Alpha?

Yes, build "KodiSetup-20200630-f098e1e2-master-x64.exe" from http://mirrors.kodi.tv/nightlies/windows/win64/master/ already includes HDR functionality.

[Allstar007]

Is HDR now included as standard in the Kodi 19 Alpha?

Yes, build "KodiSetup-20200630-f098e1e2-master-x64.exe" from http://mirrors.kodi.tv/nightlies/windows/win64/master/ already includes HDR functionality.

Thank you very much for the answer, then I load the build.

[Waterbottle23]

Refresh rate issue
Windows refresh rate is 60Hz. 
At KODI menu page, the display is still at 60Hz. 
Navigating around is smooth.
When playing HDR, KODI refresh rate changes to 24Hz. 
If the OSD menu is brought out, the mouse cursor will be laggy. 
So should the refresh rate be at 60hz or 24Hz? 

This is correct: 60 Hz for Kodi GUI and 24 Hz for movies (because movies are shot at 24 fps).

It's normal that you can see "jump" of the cursor at 24fps and not at 60fps but I do not move the mouse while watching movies

I tried disabling the adjust refresh rate.
So the display will still be at 60Hz.
I dun see any difference on video quality and motion on 60Hz for movies. 
I googled and people say the video will judder if 24p video is playing on display with 60Hz. But seriously i don’t. 
I find that when we set adjust refresh rate to start/stop, sometimes after exiting Kodi, when i go into desktop and open file explorer, the whites & yellow folders are still with HDR applied even though my resolution is only 4kUHD.
Any idea?

[jjd-uk]

Refresh rate issue
Windows refresh rate is 60Hz. 
At KODI menu page, the display is still at 60Hz. 
Navigating around is smooth.
When playing HDR, KODI refresh rate changes to 24Hz. 
If the OSD menu is brought out, the mouse cursor will be laggy. 
So should the refresh rate be at 60hz or 24Hz? 

This is correct: 60 Hz for Kodi GUI and 24 Hz for movies (because movies are shot at 24 fps).

It's normal that you can see "jump" of the cursor at 24fps and not at 60fps but I do not move the mouse while watching movies

I tried disabling the adjust refresh rate.
So the display will still be at 60Hz.
I dun see any difference on video quality and motion on 60Hz for movies. 
I googled and people say the video will judder if 24p video is playing on display with 60Hz. But seriously i don’t. 
I find that when we set adjust refresh rate to start/stop, sometimes after exiting Kodi, when i go into desktop and open file explorer, the whites & yellow folders are still with HDR applied even though my resolution is only 4kUHD.
Any idea?

For a good explanation see https://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm

Basically people are susceptible to different things, some find the pulldown judder easy to spot and want to avoid it by playing natively in 24fps, however others find the inherent motion judder in 24fps off putting.

[Waterbottle23]

This is correct: 60 Hz for Kodi GUI and 24 Hz for movies (because movies are shot at 24 fps).

It's normal that you can see "jump" of the cursor at 24fps and not at 60fps but I do not move the mouse while watching movies

I tried disabling the adjust refresh rate.
So the display will still be at 60Hz.
I dun see any difference on video quality and motion on 60Hz for movies. 
I googled and people say the video will judder if 24p video is playing on display with 60Hz. But seriously i don’t. 
I find that when we set adjust refresh rate to start/stop, sometimes after exiting Kodi, when i go into desktop and open file explorer, the whites & yellow folders are still with HDR applied even though my resolution is only 4kUHD.
Any idea?

For a good explanation see https://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm

Basically people are susceptible to different things, some find the pulldown judder easy to spot and want to avoid it by playing natively in 24fps, however others find the inherent motion judder in 24fps off putting.

Thanks! It’s a good read. 
So in layman terms conclusion, does it mean the following,
Judder is created by filming process itself (if no stabilising equipment is attached to camera).
Thus if a film is captured using stabilizers, playing in either 24 & 60Hz will not matter.
And if the film no captured by stabilizers and in 60FPS, then playing on 60Hz refresh rate will eliminate this.

I watched saving private Ryan 4kUHD. And in the beginning Normandy beach scene, I suppose those are all judders because the cameraman is not using any stabilizers to film. Am i right? 
And if play in 60Hz, the motion will be blur and reduce the juddering.
Ultimately, it depends on individual if they are purists who prefer juddering or no/less juddering effect.

[ichkriegediekri]

Merged!!! Wohoo, really nice. Congrats

[Aemstel]

I was wondering something about the HDR signal Kodi HDR/Windows uses. I have my Nvidia settings as suggested in the first post. So that means 8bit RGB full. Now, when Windows switches to HDR, which works fine, it should send 10bit for correct HDR, right? But if it's a 10bit signal, then it can't be RGB full. 4K RGB Full 10bit is not possible with HDMI 2.0. So I figured it must be switching to YCbCr 4:2:2 limited 10bit. But that can't be, because that would mean that I'd have to change my Black Level of my TV to low, which I do not need to do.

So what is actually happening? Is it sending 8bit HDR or something? Is that even a thing? If it is 8bit, doesn't that mean the HDR is imperfect?
Another thing it might be doing, which seems more likely, is that it's sending YCbCr 4:2:2 limited 10bit, and is doing some kind of conversion to the limited color, to make the TV see it as full range.

edit: I forgot that 4K 10bit RGB full is actually possible at low framerates. So it probably uses that for 23/ 24Hz content, as are most films.
My question remains for high framerate content though. I'm still wondering what it does with the color-range/ bitdepth when it must send 4K 60Hz 10bit HDR content, like Gemini Man.

[scott967]

I tried disabling the adjust refresh rate.
So the display will still be at 60Hz.
I dun see any difference on video quality and motion on 60Hz for movies. 
I googled and people say the video will judder if 24p video is playing on display with 60Hz. But seriously i don’t. 
I find that when we set adjust refresh rate to start/stop, sometimes after exiting Kodi, when i go into desktop and open file explorer, the whites & yellow folders are still with HDR applied even though my resolution is only 4kUHD.
Any idea?

For a good explanation see https://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm

Basically people are susceptible to different things, some find the pulldown judder easy to spot and want to avoid it by playing natively in 24fps, however others find the inherent motion judder in 24fps off putting.

Thanks! It’s a good read. 
So in layman terms conclusion, does it mean the following,
Judder is created by filming process itself (if no stabilising equipment is attached to camera).
Thus if a film is captured using stabilizers, playing in either 24 & 60Hz will not matter.
And if the film no captured by stabilizers and in 60FPS, then playing on 60Hz refresh rate will eliminate this.

I watched saving private Ryan 4kUHD. And in the beginning Normandy beach scene, I suppose those are all judders because the cameraman is not using any stabilizers to film. Am i right? 
And if play in 60Hz, the motion will be blur and reduce the juddering.
Ultimately, it depends on individual if they are purists who prefer juddering or no/less juddering effect.

the term "judder"  tends to be used by different people to mean different things.  It has to be qualified to understand what is meant.

There is in general a relationship between frame rate and shutter speed / exposure time per frame.  When movies were first created, there were limits on the minimum exposure time for a frame to receive sufficient light to expose the film (even then, sets had to be tremendously lit).  The camera shutter was an actual wheel that rotated in front of the film, with openings in it (so the film was exposed while the open portion was in front of the film.  The film would be advanced to the next frame when the shutter was in its occluded area).  So the shutter would be measured in terms of angular degrees that allowed film to be exposed. 

When camera or subjects were in motion, some of that motion would be recorded as smearing or "motion blur".  But in between frame exposures the camera or subjects would still be in motion, so the next frame would appear slightly offset in position from the proceeding one.  That's been called "motion judder".  Over time, we've become so accustomed to seeing that in movies that it has become the standard or expected "film-like" appearance.  When it's eliminated (with modern cameras that can use much shorter exposures and high frame-rates) it's considered (by purists) to be the dreaded "soap opera effect" or SOE.

(As an aside, the 24 fps didn't become a standard until they figured out how to record a sound track onto the film.  Previously, the camera operator would vary the speed, often going slower when there wasn't motion to allow longer exposure and faster when there was.  This meant the projectionist was also an artist, as during playback you had to also vary the speed.  Though some theater owners would order projectionists to intentionally speed up the projection to squeeze in an extra showing per day.  Note that a frame was 1 inch high, so a nominal 24fps would be run at 120 feet per minute shown on a "speedometer".)

A further complication is displaying 24 frame movies on a 30/60 frame display, since 24 doesn't divide 60 evenly.  To do that they would use telecine equipment that would repeat frames alternating twice or three times (24x5=120 so works with 60 fps display).  This uneven playback speed is often called "3:2 judder".  There are also issues of the effect of repeating frames and how that is displayed.  Display devices don't work the same way as a reflected projection screen does.

(by no means an expert, so corrections welcome.)

scott s.
.

[Waterbottle23]

For a good explanation see https://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm

Basically people are susceptible to different things, some find the pulldown judder easy to spot and want to avoid it by playing natively in 24fps, however others find the inherent motion judder in 24fps off putting.

Thanks! It’s a good read. 
So in layman terms conclusion, does it mean the following,
Judder is created by filming process itself (if no stabilising equipment is attached to camera).
Thus if a film is captured using stabilizers, playing in either 24 & 60Hz will not matter.
And if the film no captured by stabilizers and in 60FPS, then playing on 60Hz refresh rate will eliminate this.

I watched saving private Ryan 4kUHD. And in the beginning Normandy beach scene, I suppose those are all judders because the cameraman is not using any stabilizers to film. Am i right? 
And if play in 60Hz, the motion will be blur and reduce the juddering.
Ultimately, it depends on individual if they are purists who prefer juddering or no/less juddering effect.

the term "judder"  tends to be used by different people to mean different things.  It has to be qualified to understand what is meant.

There is in general a relationship between frame rate and shutter speed / exposure time per frame.  When movies were first created, there were limits on the minimum exposure time for a frame to receive sufficient light to expose the film (even then, sets had to be tremendously lit).  The camera shutter was an actual wheel that rotated in front of the film, with openings in it (so the film was exposed while the open portion was in front of the film.  The film would be advanced to the next frame when the shutter was in its occluded area).  So the shutter would be measured in terms of angular degrees that allowed film to be exposed. 

When camera or subjects were in motion, some of that motion would be recorded as smearing or "motion blur".  But in between frame exposures the camera or subjects would still be in motion, so the next frame would appear slightly offset in position from the proceeding one.  That's been called "motion judder".  Over time, we've become so accustomed to seeing that in movies that it has become the standard or expected "film-like" appearance.  When it's eliminated (with modern cameras that can use much shorter exposures and high frame-rates) it's considered (by purists) to be the dreaded "soap opera effect" or SOE.

(As an aside, the 24 fps didn't become a standard until they figured out how to record a sound track onto the film.  Previously, the camera operator would vary the speed, often going slower when there wasn't motion to allow longer exposure and faster when there was.  This meant the projectionist was also an artist, as during playback you had to also vary the speed.  Though some theater owners would order projectionists to intentionally speed up the projection to squeeze in an extra showing per day.  Note that a frame was 1 inch high, so a nominal 24fps would be run at 120 feet per minute shown on a "speedometer".)

A further complication is displaying 24 frame movies on a 30/60 frame display, since 24 doesn't divide 60 evenly.  To do that they would use telecine equipment that would repeat frames alternating twice or three times (24x5=120 so works with 60 fps display).  This uneven playback speed is often called "3:2 judder".  There are also issues of the effect of repeating frames and how that is displayed.  Display devices don't work the same way as a reflected projection screen does.

(by no means an expert, so corrections welcome.)

scott s.
.

Thanks Scott for the detailed explanation. After reading on this, i decided to enable the adjust refresh rate to start/stop.
1 very important difference on this parameter is, picture look very crisp and clear with refresh rate enabled.

V19 nightly built
Just tried the 5Jul nightly built.
The screen blinking when it’s getting ready to play HDR no Longer exist.

However, an observation is after stopping the HDR movie and it exit back to the movie thumbnail screen, the colors of the movie thumbnails are saturated.
Playing a SDR movie, stop movie and exit to thumbnail movies page will revert the colors to normal. 
I’ve already sent my adjust refresh rate to start/stop and also added the advancedsetting file.

[jogal]

I was wondering something about the HDR signal Kodi HDR/Windows uses. I have my Nvidia settings as suggested in the first post. So that means 8bit RGB full. Now, when Windows switches to HDR, which works fine, it should send 10bit for correct HDR, right? But if it's a 10bit signal, then it can't be RGB full. 4K RGB Full 10bit is not possible with HDMI 2.0. So I figured it must be switching to YCbCr 4:2:2 limited 10bit. But that can't be, because that would mean that I'd have to change my Black Level of my TV to low, which I do not need to do.

So what is actually happening? Is it sending 8bit HDR or something? Is that even a thing? If it is 8bit, doesn't that mean the HDR is imperfect?
Another thing it might be doing, which seems more likely, is that it's sending YCbCr 4:2:2 limited 10bit, and is doing some kind of conversion to the limited color, to make the TV see it as full range.

edit: I forgot that 4K 10bit RGB full is actually possible at low framerates. So it probably uses that for 23/ 24Hz content, as are most films.
My question remains for high framerate content though. I'm still wondering what it does with the color-range/ bitdepth when it must send 4K 60Hz 10bit HDR content, like Gemini Man.

This is managed by the video driver and device hardware at low-level (HDMI handshake). They are outside the scope of Kodi.

In general, with current HDMI 2.0 devices, both Intel and Nvidia have a preference for the 8 bit RGB 4:4:4 full range format for SDR and 12 bit RGB 4:4:4 full range format for HDR up to 30Hz (10 bits adding padding up to 12 bit).

For 60Hz HDR is used 8 bit RGB 4:4:4 with dithering because HDMI 2.0 bandwidth limitation. The human eye is unable to distinguish 8 bit with dithering from 10bit.

Intel or NVidia never use YCbCr 4:2:0 or 4:2:2 format unless forced from the driver control panel.

But some older devices (e.g. projectors) don't support HDR 10-12 bit RGB or don't support HDR RGB at all (YCbCr 4:2:0 only). Logically it is a limitation of the hardware of the device.

If you need to visualize Gemini Man at RGB 60 fps 10bit you can buy HDMI 2.1 hardware (all chain) and I am sure that Kodi supports it. 

[shoppedude]

Is HDR now included as standard in the Kodi 19 Alpha?

Yes, build "KodiSetup-20200630-f098e1e2-master-x64.exe" from http://mirrors.kodi.tv/nightlies/windows/win64/master/ already includes HDR functionality.

@jogal 

Does the advancedsettings fix for Nvidia still need to be applied with post-merge versions?

Thanks for all the amazing work you've done on this!

-Shoppedude

[Aemstel]

I was wondering something about the HDR signal Kodi HDR/Windows uses. I have my Nvidia settings as suggested in the first post. So that means 8bit RGB full. Now, when Windows switches to HDR, which works fine, it should send 10bit for correct HDR, right? But if it's a 10bit signal, then it can't be RGB full. 4K RGB Full 10bit is not possible with HDMI 2.0. So I figured it must be switching to YCbCr 4:2:2 limited 10bit. But that can't be, because that would mean that I'd have to change my Black Level of my TV to low, which I do not need to do.

So what is actually happening? Is it sending 8bit HDR or something? Is that even a thing? If it is 8bit, doesn't that mean the HDR is imperfect?
Another thing it might be doing, which seems more likely, is that it's sending YCbCr 4:2:2 limited 10bit, and is doing some kind of conversion to the limited color, to make the TV see it as full range.

edit: I forgot that 4K 10bit RGB full is actually possible at low framerates. So it probably uses that for 23/ 24Hz content, as are most films.
My question remains for high framerate content though. I'm still wondering what it does with the color-range/ bitdepth when it must send 4K 60Hz 10bit HDR content, like Gemini Man.

This is managed by the video driver and device hardware at low-level (HDMI handshake). They are outside the scope of Kodi.

In general, with current HDMI 2.0 devices, both Intel and Nvidia have a preference for the 8 bit RGB 4:4:4 full range format for SDR and 12 bit RGB 4:4:4 full range format for HDR up to 30Hz (10 bits adding padding up to 12 bit).

For 60Hz HDR is used 8 bit RGB 4:4:4 with dithering because HDMI 2.0 bandwidth limitation. The human eye is unable to distinguish 8 bit with dithering from 10bit.

Intel or NVidia never use YCbCr 4:2:0 or 4:2:2 format unless forced from the driver control panel.

But some older devices (e.g. projectors) don't support HDR 10-12 bit RGB or don't support HDR RGB at all (YCbCr 4:2:0 only). Logically it is a limitation of the hardware of the device.

If you need to visualize Gemini Man at RGB 60 fps 10bit you can buy HDMI 2.1 hardware (all chain) and I am sure that Kodi supports it. 

Thanks a lot for that explanation @jogal ! Clears it all up

[jogal]

Does the advancedsettings fix for Nvidia still need to be applied with post-merge versions?

Code merged is exactly same, so nothing changes for now.

[kikassridec2]

Can i just ask please is whitelisting necessary with adjust display on start/stop? 

pros/cons ect?

[orby]

Can i just ask please is whitelisting necessary with adjust display on start/stop? 

pros/cons ect?

Whitelist is necessary so just add all the modes you think you will need, I just select all the 2160 options