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4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations.
(2019-09-03, 13:49)Sjors125 Wrote: So @wrxtasy Which mediaplayer would you buy for 4k HDR playback (excluding DV)?

I already own the Eminent EM7680 which has a AMLogic S905X-H SoC (based on 4 Cortex-A53 cores, and a Mali 450 MP3 GPU) running on CoreElec. It should be able to support 4k 60 Hz, BD-ISO, DVD-ISO, h.265, HEVC, VP9, HDR, HDR-10, Dolby True HD, Dolby Atmos, DTS-HD and DTS-HD MA.

and I have a Minix Neo U9-H which has an 8 core AMLogic based on the same Cortex-A53 and a Mali 820 MP3 GPU. It is running Android right now, as I want to be able to use Netflix and some other tv apps.

Do they suffice for 4k HDR with the correct Max CLL/FALL?

No see - https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?pid...pid2823690

Not until we are using a Linux 5.3+ Kernel and a stable Kodi v10 Matrix release, late next year I suspect.

If using a OLED, the closer your display's brightness is to a Sony BVM-X300 OLED mastering monitor, that hits 1000nits - the more accurate your HDR10 Movies & TV series - picture output will be to the creators intent.

Panasonic and LG are producing pretty decent OLED's these days.
I'm sure you have seen THIS Shootout (click)

There is a bunch of great info about that BVM-X300 and the visible advantages of HDR in general in THIS article.

Reply
(2019-09-04, 03:27)wrxtasy Wrote:
(2019-09-03, 13:49)Sjors125 Wrote: So @wrxtasy Which mediaplayer would you buy for 4k HDR playback (excluding DV)?

I already own the Eminent EM7680 which has a AMLogic S905X-H SoC (based on 4 Cortex-A53 cores, and a Mali 450 MP3 GPU) running on CoreElec. It should be able to support 4k 60 Hz, BD-ISO, DVD-ISO, h.265, HEVC, VP9, HDR, HDR-10, Dolby True HD, Dolby Atmos, DTS-HD and DTS-HD MA.

and I have a Minix Neo U9-H which has an 8 core AMLogic based on the same Cortex-A53 and a Mali 820 MP3 GPU. It is running Android right now, as I want to be able to use Netflix and some other tv apps.

Do they suffice for 4k HDR with the correct Max CLL/FALL?

No see - https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?pid...pid2823690

Not until we are using a Linux 5.3+ Kernel and a stable Kodi v10 Matrix release, late next year I suspect.

If using a OLED, the closer your display's brightness is to a Sony BVM-X300 OLED mastering monitor, that hits 1000nits - the more accurate your HDR10 Movies & TV series - picture output will be to the creators intent.

Panasonic and LG are producing pretty decent OLED's these days.
I'm sure you have seen THIS Shootout (click)

There is a bunch of great info about that BVM-X300 and the visible advantages of HDR in general in THIS article. 

Worth pointing out that the X300 isn't the universal choice for mastering these days (and Dolby Vision content has often used a Dolby mastering display).  If too much of the screen is in the HDR range for too long, the X300's display goes into a protection mode to avoid overheating, dimming itself, and ceases to be calibrated. There is an amber warning light on the front that flashes to tell you this is happening - basically that lamp means 'don't use this image as a reference any more'. (I think this is also used to avoid OLED screen burn when displaying static content for too long)

There are now other reference monitors that avoid this and are well regarded. (Eizo do a well respected LCD model which has a backlight per pixel effectively AIUI)
Reply
(2019-09-04, 03:27)wrxtasy Wrote:
(2019-09-03, 13:49)Sjors125 Wrote: So @wrxtasy Which mediaplayer would you buy for 4k HDR playback (excluding DV)?

I already own the Eminent EM7680 which has a AMLogic S905X-H SoC (based on 4 Cortex-A53 cores, and a Mali 450 MP3 GPU) running on CoreElec. It should be able to support 4k 60 Hz, BD-ISO, DVD-ISO, h.265, HEVC, VP9, HDR, HDR-10, Dolby True HD, Dolby Atmos, DTS-HD and DTS-HD MA.

and I have a Minix Neo U9-H which has an 8 core AMLogic based on the same Cortex-A53 and a Mali 820 MP3 GPU. It is running Android right now, as I want to be able to use Netflix and some other tv apps.

Do they suffice for 4k HDR with the correct Max CLL/FALL?

No see - https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?pid...pid2823690

Not until we are using a Linux 5.3+ Kernel and a stable Kodi v10 Matrix release, late next year I suspect.

If using a OLED, the closer your display's brightness is to a Sony BVM-X300 OLED mastering monitor, that hits 1000nits - the more accurate your HDR10 Movies & TV series - picture output will be to the creators intent.

Panasonic and LG are producing pretty decent OLED's these days.
I'm sure you have seen THIS Shootout (click)

There is a bunch of great info about that BVM-X300 and the visible advantages of HDR in general in THIS article. 
Had not seen the shoutout, but happy to read LG won Wink I own a LG OLED 55C7 from 2017.

The Odroid seems the best option, but as it possibly has problems showing 4:2:2, that one isn't perfect eighter.
Why is it so freakishly hard to do these things perfectly?
Reply
(2019-08-31, 16:23)Sjors125 Wrote: So in short, the Apple TV for watching Dolby Vision material and a S922X in all other cases?
Is Dolby Vision technically possible on a S922X and just not implemented, or is it impossible?

If you really want to use Dolby Vision, the best way as of today is to buy an UHD Blu-Ray player: however, that too can't play back DV rips, just Blu-Ray discs and streaming services.
Reply
(2019-09-05, 04:01)DarkSphere00 Wrote:
(2019-08-31, 16:23)Sjors125 Wrote: So in short, the Apple TV for watching Dolby Vision material and a S922X in all other cases?
Is Dolby Vision technically possible on a S922X and just not implemented, or is it impossible?

If you really want to use Dolby Vision, the best way as of today is to buy an UHD Blu-Ray player: however, that too can't play back DV rips, just Blu-Ray discs and streaming services. 

I already have Smile
Reply
(2019-09-04, 13:33)Sjors125 Wrote: The Odroid seems the best option, but as it possibly has problems showing 4:2:2, that one isn't perfect eighter.
Why is it so freakishly hard to do these things perfectly?

This may be specifically related to my Odroid N2 / Yamaha / 4K TV setup. I'm not seeing everyone else having 4:2:2 or major 4K HDR issues. Might possibly even be HDMI cable related.
As such I will remove it from Post #1

Reply
(2019-09-06, 05:24)wrxtasy Wrote:
(2019-09-04, 13:33)Sjors125 Wrote: The Odroid seems the best option, but as it possibly has problems showing 4:2:2, that one isn't perfect eighter.
Why is it so freakishly hard to do these things perfectly?

This may be specifically related to my Odroid N2 / Yamaha / 4K TV setup. I'm not seeing everyone else having 4:2:2 or major 4K HDR issues. Might possibly even be HDMI cable related.
As such I will remove it from Post #1 

That was my reason to not buy it yet, as I don't want to introduce 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 problems in my setup Wink
Think I'll start saving some money for an Odroid then, as that seams to be the best solution at the moment.
Reply
Am I right in thinking that all Bluray's (including UHD HDR) only have 4.2.0 chroma subsampling ?

All TV Shows and Movies only have 4.2.0 chroma subsampling ?

So if you are only going to use the Odroid N2 to watch TV series and Movies, you will never ever use 4.2.2 or 4.4.4 ?

The Odroid N2 would never ever need to change to 4.2.2 or 4.4.4 ?

Thanks
Reply
(2019-09-06, 22:22)treboR2Robert Wrote: Am I right in thinking that all Bluray's (including UHD HDR) only have 4.2.0 chroma subsampling ?

All TV Shows and Movies only have 4.2.0 chroma subsampling ?

So if you are only going to use the Odroid N2 to watch TV series and Movies, you will never ever use 4.2.2 or 4.4.4 ?

The Odroid N2 would never ever need to change to 4.2.2 or 4.4.4 ?

Thanks

You are correct that all consumer sources use 4:2:0 chroma subsampling within their compressed stream.  

However 4:2:0 video output was only added to the HDMI spec for 2160p59.94 and 2160p60 modes.  4:2:0 isn't valid or used for any other output modes - so 2160p30 and below outputs have to be in RGB, YCrCb 4:2:2 or YCrCb 4:4:4 mode, and can't be 4:2:0.  (4:2:0 has never been an option for 1080p and below output)  However RGB and YCrCb 4:4:4 are only supported at 8-bit (and thus SDR-only) at 2160p50 and above.

For HDR output at 2160p30 and below you can use RGB, YCrCb 4:2:2 or 4:4:4.  (NB - these are the most common frame rates for UHD Blu-ray movies, drama and docs)
For HDR output at 2160p50 and above you have to use YCrCb 4:2:0 or 4:2:2. 

4:2:0 at any bit depth is supported at 2160p50 and above.
RGB or 4:4:4 at any bit depth is supported at 2160p30 and below. 
RGB or 4:4:4 at 2160p50 and above are SDR-only.

4:2:2 12-bit is the only HDMI 2.0 chroma subsampling format that is supported at all 2160p frame rates.  However not all displays support 4:2:2 12-bit, some want 4:2:0 for HDR 2160p50 and above.

(4:2:2 is the standard used in almost all broadcast studios and editing facilities - hence it's widespread used in HDMI, even though consumer video 'on disc' or via OTT streaming services like Netflix, Amazon Prime doesn't use it. RGB and 4:4:4 offer equal bandwith for all video content - with no reduced chroma bandwidth - so are offered for when displays are used to display non-consumer video - such as PC use, where you don't want the smudged or smeared text that 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 would deliver.)

TL;DR - you can't run 4:2:0 HDMI output for all frame rates and some displays don't support all HDMI 2.0 options - so being able to force subsampling can be useful.  For UHD HDR Blu-ray movie replay - 4:2:0 HDMI output isn't an option for the vast majority of movies UNLESS you want to watch with 3:2 pulldown etc.
Reply
@noggin

Thanks for the very detailed reply, much appreciated.

So in a scenario where

TV is LG B7 Oled
Player is Odroid N2 running coreelec
File being played is 2160p 10 bit HDR 24fps with 4.2.0 chroma

The odroid will output 4.2.2 ?

If so how is it doing this if the source (MKV file) only contains 4.2.0 ?

Is the odroid doing some kind of upsampling ?

Would there be any benefit in the odroid outputting 4.4.4 instead of 4.2.2 with the same file ?

Thanks again
Reply
(2019-09-08, 16:02)treboR2Robert Wrote: @noggin

Thanks for the very detailed reply, much appreciated.

So in a scenario where

TV is LG B7 Oled
Player is Odroid N2 running coreelec
File being played is 2160p 10 bit HDR 24fps with 4.2.0 chroma

The odroid will output 4.2.2 ?

If so how is it doing this if the source (MKV file) only contains 4.2.0 ?

Is the odroid doing some kind of upsampling ?

Would there be any benefit in the odroid outputting 4.4.4 instead of 4.2.2 with the same file ?

Thanks again

Like consumer DVD players, Blu-ray players etc. which play 4:2:0 video but output 4:2:2 (most common) or 4:4:4 or RGB, the player will chroma upsample the chroma from 2:0 to 2:2 or 4:4.  

On many (but not all) Kodi platforms the YCbCr 4:2:0 video is upsampled and matrixed to RGB (at 4:4:4) as part of the player process, then if required matrixed back to YCbCr 4:4:4 or downsampled to YCbCr 4:2:2. 

This is a perfectly normal process (though many early DVD players had a bug that compromised the chroma upsampling due to a widespread implementation error)
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Where does it get the necessary info to see what details or colours are missing in the original chroma? Algorithms? As with mp3's, once information is lost, it can not be added again, when for example converting it to FLAC... I guess that would be the same with videos... Or isn't that correct?
Reply
(2019-09-08, 20:35)Sjors125 Wrote: Where does it get the necessary info to see what details or colours are missing in the original chroma? Algorithms? As with mp3's, once information is lost, it can not be added again, when for example converting it to FLAC... I guess that would be the same with videos... Or isn't that correct?

It's a resampling process - the eye is far less sensitive to chroma detail than luminance detail (PAL and NTSC chroma have very low chroma bandwidth).  Just as you can scale an image to change it's resolution by resampling, you can do the same to just the chroma information.  

The upsampling process isn't about replacing the missing information it's more about converting between standards (4:2:2 and 4:2:0 are standards because they exploit the eye/brain being less colour-sensitive than brightness sensitive in detail terms)  At the end of the day the result will end up being equal bandwidth RGB - so it has to be upsampled at some point in the chain!

You are correct that if you go from 4:4:4 YCbCr or RGB to 4:2:0 you are losing some information, but that information is information that you just don't see on most source material (test patterns can show it, but real world content just doesn't really show it)  

Even in broadcast studios 4:2:2 (with half-horizontal resolution chroma) is the universal signal standard.

Compared to the artefacts introduced by h.264/h.265 compression - chroma sub-sampling is the least of anyone's problems!
Reply
Sony BRAVIA X900F - Android TV 8.0 Oreo

4K HDR capabilities:
  • HDR10 supported (e.g. Netflix, Prime Video etc.)
  • Dolby Vision supported (e.g. Netflix, Prime Video, etc.)
    ("only" single-layer Dolby Vision a.k.a. dvhe.stn supported though)
  • VP9-PQ (VP9.2) supported in YouTube and Google Play Movies
  • HLG supported (only tested for HEVC, not for VP9)
  • HDR10+ not supported

General A/V capabilities:
  • switches between HDR (BT.2020) and SDR modes depending on content
  • superb upscaling
  • decent deinterlacing (no frame doubling in case of MediaCodec playback though)
  • no display mode/refresh rate switching (Motionflow performs decent frame rate conversion)
  • proper Passthrough support for Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus (including Atmos) and DTS
  • DTS-HD API broken (no stable sound output)
  • 100mbps Ethernet port only
  • WiFi 802.11ac can achieve a stable net throughput of up to 250mbps (at optimal signal conditions)
  • 4K @ 60p causes stuttering over network

Kodi capabilities:
  • HEVC HDR10 working
  • HEVC HLG working
  • VP9-PQ (VP9.2) working (proper HDR mode switching currently only via inputstream.adaptive)
  • Dolby Vision not yet supported (MX Player working properly)
  • GUI colors/luminance off when playing HDR content
Sony BRAVIA KD-65XF9005 (FW V6.6555 / Android TV Oreo 8.0)
Reply
(2019-09-09, 08:25)CiNcH Wrote: Sony BRAVIA X900F - Android TV 8.0 Oreo
- no mode switching (Motionflow performs decent frame rate conversion)

I'm afraid that's very much a matter of opinion. I hold a different one. (I can't watch content with MotionFlow enabled because of the number of spurious artefacts it introduces, and its 50->59.94Hz conversions doesn't do a great job.)

But opinions are just that - we're all entitled to hold them and they don't have to be the same!
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