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4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations.
#1
Lightbulb 
(October 2018)

The aim of this thread is not to play one media player off against the other but simply to collect known issues across various media players into one central condensed thread so potential buyers can be informed about various problems and limitations that may affect them personally if buying 4K HDR10 capable hardware.

This thread will be updated as various issues get fixed, and those issues are confirmed tested & fixed by more than a single user.
If anything is missing/incorrect and considered a serious issue please let me know.



4K HDR10 capable platforms.
The following thread is a good background pre-read about what to look for with seamless SDR & 4K HDR usage:
Auto frame rate switching & dynamic range matching - 4K (HDR10) capable Hardware (click)

*** Gigabit Ethernet (1000M) is needed for trouble free 4K HDR Bluray Rip home networked streaming, especially content with 7.1 HD lossless Audio

In no particular order....

Xiaomi Mi Box (Oreo OS) running Kodi Krypton (click):
  • WARNING ! - the Mi Box Oreo Firmware has quite a few serious Bugs, see the Mini Review HERE (click)
  • No Gigabit Ethernet for high bitrate 4K video playback - a cheap USB3 > Gigabit adapter needs to be used for any high bitrate Video streaming. An ASIX (Ugreen) & Realtek chipset (USB Hub) adapters confirmed working. However there are problems after the device sleeps.
  • No auto refresh or auto resolution switching. 2160p60 or 2160p24Hz must be manually selected in Android Settings for 4K
  • Multiple options in Android Settings on the Oreo Mi Box for auto HDR to SDR or auto SDR to HDR switching as well as Chroma & bit depth selections.
  • 4K HDR > SDR produces decent picture outputs.
  • Kodi Krypton & Leia PVR Addons produces poor quality (half motion) deinterlacing for OTA TV viewing.
  • 60Hz 4K HDR YouTube works if the community modded Webwrapper Smart Youtube TV App (click) is installed.
  • Amazon (Prime) 4K HDR Video works if the v.4.7.9 Prime Video App (click) is installed.

Vero 4(+) running OSMC Kodi (click):
  • A upgraded Vero 4K+(click) (S905D) now being sold with Gigabit Ethernet & includes faster eMMC storage and other tweaks.
  • The original Vero 4K has No Gigabit Ethernet for high bitrate 4K video playback - a cheap USB3 > Gigabit adapter needs to be used to make high bitrate streaming bulletproof.
  • Autoswitching to 4:4:4, 10bit Chroma and bit depth not 100% reliable just yet.
  • Green screen bug - color output issues with 4:2:2 Chroma. 4:2:2 only Projector owners beware. Fixed in the next OSMC update.
  • Forcing 4:4:4 10bit works fine for 4K HDR.
  • Lots of detailed 4K HDR testing and improvements happening with the Vero 4K+

NVIDIA Shield (Oreo OS) (click):
  • This thread needs to be read - comparing Apple TV 4K vs Shield vs Intel - Why is 4K (Shield) image quality bad ? (click)
  • Oreo - Colorspace issues still being reported when used with a variety of 4K HDR displays, see HERE and HERE for details.
  • Android TV Oreo OS - Shield Colorspace testing conducted over HERE (click) by @wesk05
  • HDR to SDR or BT.2020 to BT.709 conversions not supported on the Shield.
  • Ongoing issues... (inc. Oreo)
  • Relatively poor 1080p > 4K hardware upscaled picture quality vs the competition and what a 4K TV can output using it's superior upscaling hardware.
  • Kodi Leia beta 18.x (& MrMC) can work around this poor upscaling with auto 4K <<-->>1080p resolution switching, however then....
  • Colorspace 4K HDR >> SDR will still be a problem and what about picture upscaling for other non Kodi Apps ?
  • Broken unreliable/deinterlacing for Kodi Krypton PVR Addons. Use Kodi Leia 18.x instead.
  • For Apps usage - only Kodi, MrMC, Plex and Emby can auto refresh switch for smooth video playback.
  • Reported issues with 4K HDR & HD Audio passthrough if using Ethernet, click HERE for details.
  • Be aware the Shield has no Dolby Audio licence, so Apps that stream 5.1 DD+ Audio like Netflix and Amazon Video needs a HDMI connected DD+ audio receiver. Otherwise expect 2.0 audio only from such Apps.
  • No 4K HDR YouTube. 4K SDR only.

AMLogic S905X / S905D / S912 platforms running DIY LibreELEC Krypton (click):
  • S905 only chipsets do NOT support HDR.
  • S905D Chipsets will have the best ongoing Kodi support and also come with GigaE
  • S912 Chipsets are currently the fastest but Linux/LE Kodi support will cease after Kodi v18 Leia.
  • Be careful not all platforms come with Gigabit Ethernet, lots of choices in this AML LE thread (click)
  • The cheap devices usually always include highly directional, limited range Infra Red only remotes, and also...
  • ..usually have relatively poor Chipset heatsinks and thermal management. MINIX Hardware beats all others with quality heatsinks.
  • Green screen bug - color output issues with 4:2:2 Chroma. 4:2:2 only Projector owners beware. Fixed in the next LE update.
  • Auto 4:4:4 10bit works fine for 24p 4K HDR.

Apple TV 4K running the v 3.7.0 MrMC App (click):
  • Superb picture quality with high quality upscaling. Currently the most powerful Plug n Play 4K HDR media player on the market.
  • MrMC = highly modded Kodi Jarvis. Very experienced Ex Kodi developers run the MrMC project. Improvements to the App happen quickly.
  • No additional Kodi Addons or Skin can be installed. You have to use the ones already pre-packaged into MrMC. The upcoming Ariana Skin is very nice ! Big Grin
  • No audio passthrough at all with the ATV 4K so no Atmos or DTS:X 3D audio, the TrueHD or DTS-HD MA audio stream will be used.
  • 48kHz/24bit - 5.1 DD/DTS & 7.1 HD audio is decoded into 5.1 / 7.1 - 48kHz/24bit LPCM for no loss in audio quality, or downmixed into 5.1 DD
  • EDIT: - Dolby ATMOS support announced for upcoming tvOS 12.x Firmware, looks like it's iTunes, VUDU, Netflix (and possibly Amazon) only at this stage:
    Apple TV 4K delivers highest quality cinematic experience with tvOS 12 (Click)
  • No 4K YouTube may be an App limitation for some. 1080p only.

Zidoo X9S (click):
  • Does not run Kodi Krypton natively to provide 4K HDR or HD audio passthrough.
  • ZDMC (Kodi fork) is used as a front end for an external media player software.
  • Video Frame Rate microstutters, details and links in THIS post onwards.
  • Color banding issues (click) with current Firmware.
  • Improvement to color banding with new Firmware, see THIS Post for details.
  • Deinterlacing for OTA TV has never been a strong performer on this platform.

HiMedia Q5/Q10 Pro (click)

Intel x86_64
  • No 4K HDR support when using Linux, LibreELEC or standard Windows - Kodi Krypton
  • No Linux 10bit HEVC decode support (needed for 4K) when using NVIDIA Graphics cards.
  • 4K HDR Kodi usage needs ...
  • Windows 7 or latter and a Nvidia or AMD GPU that does 10bit HEVC hardware decoding + Kodi DSPlayer build (Jarvis or Krypton)
  • Current best & cheapest option is an AMD Ryzen 5 2400G
  • Custom HDR10 Kodi: Any official Kodi Windows build combined with an external media player that supports madVR, such as Media Player Classic.
  • Windows 4K HDR Netflix hardware requirements are listed HERE (click)



Further Notes and FAQ's:
  • There is no media player software on any NON TV - DV platform that can playback dual layer - 4K DolbyVision Bluray Rips and output DolbyVision metadata.
  • The Apple TV 4K, that is DV capable can only stream 4K DV from iTunes, Netflix and possibly VUDU using a specific single layer DV streaming profile.
  • The Definitive List Of Dolby Vision Titles Available On Netflix, iTunes, Vudu and Amazon Video (click)
  • The rare - DTS-HD HRA (bitstreamed) audio format seems to cause issues across various platforms in combo with Onkyo AVR's.** Fixed with OSMC Kodi and LibreELEC Kodi Krypton.
  • Remote controls can be hit and miss in their reliability and Wireless Bluetooth ones can be subject to bad Radio Frequency interference.
  • The worst affected seems to be the Mini NVIDIA Shield BT remote, with numerous ongoing issues constantly reported as seen in THIS thread (click)
  • An explanation of Bluetooth RF interference issues affecting the Shield and the permanent DIY Hardware fix is in THIS post.
  • The most reliable are the USB dongle WiFi remotes like the Plug n Play MINIX A2 lite or the OSMC Mini remote. Not seen any BT interference reported issues with the ATV 4K remote either.

W. Big Grin

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#2
So is it confirmed that S905X and S905D impose an 8-bit footprint on a 10-bit HDR (or SDR) signal?  That's a pity if that is the case.  I know lots of HDR displays are using 8-bit panels with processing to hit 10-bit dynamic range, but it strikes me that if you have a choice of a device that delivers a clean 10-bit path rather than 10->8->10 which has to use dither to hide the 8-bit quantisation errors, that's a significant issue to be aware of.  Given that you are using a greater dynamic range with HDR content, the 10 vs 8 bit processing is more of an issue than it would be for an SDR 10-bit source (which is rare in the consumer space)

AIUI that's a significant benefit of the S912 SoC isn't it - as it DOES offer a clean path that doesn't require an 8-bit process somewhere in the chain.  I'm assuming that the Apple TV 4K supporting Dolby Vision means it's a clean path, and have heard no suggestion that the nVidia Shield TV imposes an 8-bit process either?
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#3
Very very interesting topic about issues on 4K HDR.

I've read the post and also other post in libreelec forum but I do not have a clear idea about which is the best device.
So, If i want a:
- DTS-X/Dolby Atmos passthrough
- Best quality image
- Correct HDR and color space autoswitch
- Correct refresh rate
- HDMI CEC
- Fastest LAN/WIFI
- Development suppot!

AppleTV is discarded, no DTS-HD/X support
Zidoo X9S? Problems of color output?
Vero4k, slow CPU and wifi¿
Minix U9-H with libreelec, best option?

What do u think?

Thanks!
Reply
#4
(2018-05-29, 08:22)atomizasser Wrote: Very very interesting topic about issues on 4K HDR.

I've read the post and also other post in libreelec forum but I do not have a clear idea about which is the best device.
So, If i want a:
- DTS-X/Dolby Atmos passthrough
- Best quality image
- Correct HDR and color space autoswitch
- Correct refresh rate
- HDMI CEC
- Fastest LAN/WIFI
- Development suppot!

AppleTV is discarded, no DTS-HD/X support
Zidoo X9S? Problems of color output?
Vero4k, slow CPU and wifi¿
Minix U9-H with libreelec, best option?

What do u think?

Thanks!
 Also looking for this!
Was looking at the Intel NUC but it lacks good HD-Audio support, as well as HDR support.
Reply
#5
(2018-05-29, 08:22)atomizasser Wrote: Very very interesting topic about issues on 4K HDR.

I've read the post and also other post in libreelec forum but I do not have a clear idea about which is the best device.
So, If i want a:
- DTS-X/Dolby Atmos passthrough
- Best quality image
- Correct HDR and color space autoswitch
- Correct refresh rate
- HDMI CEC
- Fastest LAN/WIFI
- Development suppot!

AppleTV is discarded, no DTS-HD/X support
Zidoo X9S? Problems of color output?
Vero4k, slow CPU and wifi¿
Minix U9-H with libreelec, best option?

What do u think?

Thanks!

The nVidia ShieldTV may be worth a look.  The Rec.709->Rec.2020 gamut conversion it does may be an acceptable replacement for gamut switching, particularly as it is supposed to improve with the current rollout of Oreo.
(I think we need to be careful to distinguish between gamut and colour space - we seem to be using colour space as a catch-all for multiple things)
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#6
(2018-05-29, 19:24)noggin Wrote: The nVidia ShieldTV may be worth a look.  The Rec.709->Rec.2020 gamut conversion it does may be an acceptable replacement for gamut switching, particularly as it is supposed to improve with the current rollout of Oreo.
(I think we need to be careful to distinguish between gamut and colour space - we seem to be using colour space as a catch-all for multiple things)
Potential Shield purchasers may want to keep reading this Oreo thread (click)
And also remember this thread concerning HDR and HD audio inc. Atmos:
- Issues with 4K HDR & HD Audio passthrough if using Ethernet, click HERE for details.

For info - I keep reading Apple TV 4K users utilising "Neural X" audio processing on their AVR's to produce decent quality Atmos like 3D audio.

Reply
#7
(2018-05-30, 01:29)wrxtasy Wrote: For info - I keep reading Apple TV 4K users utilising "Neural X" audio processing on their AVR's to produce decent quality Atmos like 3D audio.

Neural:X only if DTS:X is supported by that device. Dolby has a similar one called "Dolby Surround" but both do a really good job.
Denon X6500H 7.1.4 -> LG OLED65C6P
Main: Apple TV 4K with MrMC + Channels App w/ HDHomeRun Quatro
Other Kodi Devices: NVIDIA Shield Pro, NUC D54250WYK, Mi Box
MeCOOL M8S Pro, Raspberry Pi 3, Apple TV 4, SYNOLOGY DS1815+ | DX513
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#8
So if I were to choose between a MINIX U9-H and a Inte nuc Gemini Lake for 4k and DTS-HD Audio support. HDR is welcome but not a dealbreaker. 

What would be the best choice?
I want it simple and stable and preferly with Kodi (family friendly)

Thats the 2 options im looking at now, with a budget around 400$
Reply
#9
Simply = an integrated Wireless remote so no more missed button pressings. And if it's DIY = set (settings) once and forget for auto everything.
I get this with LibreELEC on the MINIX U9.
It also has HDMI-CEC control so when I turn the U9 - OFF / ON with the Wireless remote it also turns the TV and AVR - OFF / ON. Works nicely for me.

Intel has no HDMI-CEC control out of the box, but it will be a faster device if you use a SSD and DDR4 RAM. You pay for the privilege.
Intel Windows Kodi would give you what you want, I'm unsure of Intel HD audio passthrough status with Linux or LibreELEC these days.
The Intel Gemini Lake thread would have more info about this.

If it's Plug n (networked) Play you want get a ATV 4K = excellent picture quality, a really slick, family friendly, easy to use GUI and Apps like MrMC of Infuse will give you what you want.
Your DTS-HD capable AVR should easily be able to handle this with the ATV 4K:
5.1 DD/DTS & 7.1 HD audio is loslessly (bit perfect) decoding into 5.1 / 7.1 - 24bit 48kHz LPCM for no loss in Audio quality or downmixed into 5.1 DD

Reply
#10
(2018-05-31, 06:13)wrxtasy Wrote: 5.1 DD/DTS & 7.1 HD audio is loslessly (bit perfect) decoding into 5.1 / 7.1 - 24bit 48kHz LPCM for no loss in Audio quality or downmixed into 5.1 DD
  
Yep - the ATV copes fine with lossless decode of 48kHz (didn't know it did 24 bit but that's good to know) 5.1/7.1 HD Audio - but AIUI it doesn't support output of 96/192kHz stuff losslessly and downsamples to 48kHz doesn't it? (An issue if you listen to audiophile stuff, or have the Akira 5.1 192kHz Blu-ray Smile )
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#11
(2018-05-30, 02:41)timstephens24 Wrote: Neural:X only if DTS:X is supported by that device. Dolby has a similar one called "Dolby Surround" but both do a really good job.
Are you saying a media player must support DTS:X in order for Neural:X to work? Or did you mean AVR? I assume latter. I use Neural:X with all non Dolby ATMOS and DTS:X sources and the results are quite impressive.
[H]i-[d]eft [M]edia [K]een [V]ideosaurus
My Family Room Theater
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#12
Yeah, the AVR.  I generally use Neural:X for anything not Atmos/DTS:X like you.
Denon X6500H 7.1.4 -> LG OLED65C6P
Main: Apple TV 4K with MrMC + Channels App w/ HDHomeRun Quatro
Other Kodi Devices: NVIDIA Shield Pro, NUC D54250WYK, Mi Box
MeCOOL M8S Pro, Raspberry Pi 3, Apple TV 4, SYNOLOGY DS1815+ | DX513
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#13
(2018-05-31, 19:17)hdmkv Wrote:
(2018-05-30, 02:41)timstephens24 Wrote: Neural:X only if DTS:X is supported by that device. Dolby has a similar one called "Dolby Surround" but both do a really good job.
Are you saying a media player must support DTS:X in order for Neural:X to work? Or did you mean AVR? I assume latter. I use Neural:X with all non Dolby ATMOS and DTS:X sources and the results are quite impressive. 
 Yes, Neural X was release with DTS:X and Dolby Surround was released Dolby ATMOS so if your device doesn't support DTS:X or ATMOS the upmixer codec (Neural X and DTS:X) will not included
MY CURRENT MEDIA PLAYER | MY HOME THEATER
MINIX NEO U9-H LIBREELEC v18 Leia | EGREAT A5 | NVIDIA SHIELD
SAMSUNG QLED QN65Q7 | Sony 43 Android TV HDR
XBOX ONE X UHD BLU-RAY | PS4 PRO 4K w/PSVR
ONKYO SBT-A500 DTS X | ATMOS 3.2.1
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#14
Where are the players with HiSilicon Hi3798C V200 SoC?
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#15
(2018-06-04, 10:31)djnice Wrote: Where are the players with HiSilicon Hi3798C V200 SoC?
  
I don't think any of the developers have tried to develop a LibreElec/CoreElec build for them, possibly due to there being no details or Linux drivers for the VPU drivers required for hardware acceleration?

For Android - I guess you can try the standard Android Kodi app...

If they are using an external player (like Zidoo) they will attract less interest I guess - as they aren't using Kodi as their main playback engine?

Plus wrxtasy et al may just not have them - for the above reasons.
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