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Full Version: HOW TO - Kodi 2D - 3D - UHD (4k) HDR Guide Internal & External Players
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(2018-08-27, 06:48)Mount81 Wrote: [ -> ]
(2018-08-26, 19:29)Warner306 Wrote: [ -> ] 
I have read on AVS that some TV's even with 10bit panel, would show less banded PQ with 8bit HDR, than with 10 bit HDR input. They explained it with that these TV's -somehow- making the 8bit dithering better, than the 10bit dithering, so even in the case if both the source video and the display panel is 10bit, setting the output to 8bit, would look just simply better. How common could this be? Or is this just true mostly in the case of the "fake" (8bit + FRC) 10 bit panels? On top of that and more confusingly on the subject, I've also read a couple of times, that even when both the video and the display is just 8bit, one will still could have a slightly better and more banding-free PQ when the output is rather set to 10bit (I'm juts guessing, but maybe because the playback device does some "upscalling dithering" in this case). So what's truly behind these contradicting observations and opinions?

I have seen many 10 vs 8bit comparison example images in some relevant articles before, that hugely assured me regarding the undeniable and clearly perceptible advantages of a (truly) 10bit picture compared to the 8bit only "version", mostly outstanding in the much smoother and banding-free color transition. If I whenever would buy a new 10bit / HDR TV, one of the main reasons would surely be these presumed and expected advantages of the 10bit color transition, as the banding is sometimes very perceptible on my current FHD, 8bit one (Samsung H6400). So I definitely would like to avoid any possible according disappointment.  
 An 8-bit display with FRC can sometimes render smoother gradients than a 10-bit panel, but it does this by adding nearly invisible noise. So it is cheating.

Every display would use its own proprietary processing and could process the input in different bit depths, producing different results. You would have to read a review for a display, check the results of the 10-bit gradient test and look for any mention of banding or posterization issues with actual content. It could be more than just bit depth that causes display banding. Sony and Samsung are known not to release the bit depth of its panels, and it is quite likely they are still mostly 8-bit FRC if they are 120 Hz.

In terms of what we can see, 8-bits with dithering and 10-bits with dithering on a good display would look almost identical. There are 16.7 million color shades in an 8-bit source without dithering and human beings can only see 10 million colors across the visible spectrum. If you can smooth difficult gradients, the two should be nearly identical. The shots showing a huge advantage for 10-bit video would be doctored for marketing purposes. If you master and compress an UHD video, you would need at least 10-bits or the video would come apart and show banding when it arrived on the disc.

With that said, 10-bits does offer a very small theoretical advantage because it has a slightly lower noise floor compared to an 8-bit source with dithering. I would prefer a 10-bit panel, but it likely wouldn't matter if it was an 8-bit FRC panel with good processing.
@Warner306

I did some more tests:
8 bit with MPC HC on the SDR and HDR versions. Switched between madvr and default renderer. The default renderer gave a whashed out image, but still had banding.
8 and 12 bit with VLC, WinDVD 11, PDVD 17, TMT6 with the SDR version. The HDR version would not work with any of these players.

Banding was present in all scenarios.
Tested at 24hz. I have a 22" monitor attached, same banding issues.
The projector specifications on Benq's website claim it's 10 bit.

If anyone could test this scene (~49 min in) with a true 10 bit display (that does not have banding), that would be great.
I will test it -but just for curiosity- on my 8bit TV and with Q10 Pro both with 8 and 10bit output. According to some opinions the 10bit output should look a bit better (despite the 8bit panel). And also for testing how much banding will i get with my setup. Any other known scenes that are known to be suitable for testing the banding?
If your display doesn't use any fancy temporal dithering, you will just add low-quality dithering noise by sending it a 10/12-bit input. It hard to say how much banding you will experience. Even the newest displays cause some posterization in certain scenarios. There is still no perfect display tech out there.
(2018-08-30, 13:46)noob00224 Wrote: [ -> ]@Warner306

I did some more tests:
8 bit with MPC HC on the SDR and HDR versions. Switched between madvr and default renderer. The default renderer gave a whashed out image, but still had banding.
8 and 12 bit with VLC, WinDVD 11, PDVD 17, TMT6 with the SDR version. The HDR version would not work with any of these players.

Banding was present in all scenarios.
Tested at 24hz. I have a 22" monitor attached, same banding issues.
The projector specifications on Benq's website claim it's 10 bit.

If anyone could test this scene (~49 min in) with a true 10 bit display (that does not have banding), that would be great.
 Strange when your 22" monitor has banding. I would have thought it was some issue with your projector. I don't know if any of this banding is normal or not. And if the GPU is the problem, I don't know what to do besides try different drivers (385.28?).

You need another source besides your PC to test before you can blame the PC.
@Mount81 I browsed through the movie and could not find any more banding instances. I will watch out for it in other media.
@Warner306 I upgraded to 398.82(latest) during the testing process. Don't have another source to try.

Could it be some other issue, not banding?

LE: I did a test of this video via SVP tube (not the browser), it can also be downloaded: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u4UzzJZAUg
Image
MPC-HC updated.

Changelog

Changes from 1.7.17 to 1.7.18:

* Updated LAV Filters to v0.72-3-gb951d
* Updated Little CMS to lcms2.9rc1-36-gc2a1cd9
* Updated RapidJSON to v1.1.0-401-g129d19ba
* Updated ResizableLib to v1.5.1
* Updated MediaInfo DLL to v18.08

* Dragging the seekbar is now much more responsive.
* Further improved the behavior of fast seek (to keyframe).
* For example when using any of the jump hotkeys (such as RightArrow), the maximum inaccuracy is now 30% of jump size.
* Add multiple monitor support for ICC color management.
* Changed default subtitle font to Tahoma. This should fix a problem that causes certain Unicode characters to be displayed as squares.
* Support for parsing URLs with youtube-dl.exe to directly stream audio and video from Youtube and many other websites.
* It is recommended to put youtube-dl.exe in the MPC-HC directory or in the Windows directory (or any other directory that is in %PATH%).
* Fixed hiding of playlist when launching in fullscreen.

https://github.com/clsid2/mpc-hc/releases
(2018-08-31, 10:14)noob00224 Wrote: [ -> ]@Mount81 I browsed through the movie and could not find any more banding instances. I will watch out for it in other media.
@Warner306 I upgraded to 398.82(latest) during the testing process. Don't have another source to try.

Could it be some other issue, not banding?

LE: I did a test of this video via SVP tube (not the browser), it can also be downloaded: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u4UzzJZAUg
Image
 If it was worse with an HDR file, it is probably just an artifact of the HDR -> SDR conversion. The compression can be brutal when viewed at the brightness of a projector. This will cause some banding in some cases because the original luminance steps are being dramatically altered.
I have dippd my toes in the water with regard to playing 4K UHD . I have just installed a 1050 TI . All my UHD is in iso format on a NAS( unraid )  - and I am using dvdfab play v3 to play . I am getting some lag it appears ( video pauses , audio continues ) .
I have not changed any settings at this time . What can I do to achieve smooth playback ( I am asking in this thread as it appears that a lot of folk have dealt with the same issue ) .

Points to note , having to split audio and video - my AVR will pass a 4k signal but is not hdmi 2.0 compliant - video direct to screen  via hdmi , audio to AVR via DVI-D port ( with hdmi adapter) as ARC does not pass HD audio in original form.
Network : wire all the way , router , switches and NIC's all 1000 Mbs

obviously I have a bottleneck, but I dont know where . Can anyone suggest where to start and some diagnostic tools that could help?
Copy and paste a known lagging video to your desktop to eliminate your NAS as the culprit for starters.  Play direct from desktop by right clicking on the iso and selecting open with FAB.  Does it still lag?
that is something I had contemplated doing. I am sure that my network itself is not the issue , but best to know that for sure.
ok think I got it beat - using dvi-d to hdmi - for sound means directsound is used - which does not bitstream to the avr . I put the 750TI in as a 2nd card ( which gave me a 2nd hdmi port ) and the option to use wasapi to bitstream the HD audio . No video lag .
I just ned to work out what settings I need to get the best out of the picture it was horrible.  When HDR came on the desktop went a horrible colour.
Noticed banding in halo forward unto dawn 55:05.

Does anyone have it to test?
Noticed banding in:
Southland 5th season epsisode 9, 33:14.
Iron Fist 2nd season, episode 6, 30:05, but this one is browser based (FF 62.0 x64).

In all cases the banding appears on the edges of a powerfull light.
Just wondering if anyone has installed and tested the newly released v18 Beta 2, and if there's anything noteworthy for us 4K HDR/External Player folks? Middle of week right now - I do plan to install it today but probably won't get time to use it till this weekend.